Historic designation rejected for Civic Arena (Pittsburgh: crime, how much, neighborhood)

[BrianTH]

All this said, I do think it is conceivable you could include part of the Arena in the redevelopment plan. We once roughed out an idea for creating what I think of as a bowtie-arch with just the support and two opposing sections. You could run extensions of Wylie and Webster on either side, and a new cross street underneath, and create a kind of "central square" space for the development with this bowtie-arch as its central feature. Here is a crude (very crude) sketch:

[raubre]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

It will be a parking lot and some boring buildings. Just the way it is.

Actually I would hope they would redisign the street grids to its original way before the arena was built. I thought that was the point of tearing that thing down.

[Impala26]

Originally Posted by raubre

Actually I would hope they would redisign the street grids to its original way before the arena was built. I thought that was the point of tearing that thing down.

This can't really happen because of the way the street grid was laid out after Crosstown Blvd. (I-579) was built.

Here's a street map circa 1928 of the Lower Hill

You can see that a lot has changed in the various reconstruction since then. Most notably Wiley and Bedford Avenues being cut back behind the arena with Centre Ave. being extended to Sixth Ave. The grid was almost entirely rebuilt in the area around Sixth Ave. and Ross St.

So restoring the street grid to its original form can't really happen, but making a newer, more "filled-in" grid is of course still possible.

As for the arena it looks like the writing is on the wall unfortunately. I would really like to see it intuitively recycled, but I suppose we have to settle for parking lots and bland buildings instead, of which I think will bring more to outside benefactors than the actual residents of the Hill.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Impala26

So restoring the street grid to its original form can't really happen, but making a newer, more "filled-in" grid is of course still possible.

That's true, but reconnecting Wylie and Webster as I sketched out, and building a grid across them, would come pretty close to duplicating most of the original grid and connections into the Downtown grid.

but I suppose we have to settle for parking lots and bland buildings instead

I really hope people who support reusing the Arena but who also care about the development of Pittsburgh in general don't just pick up their marbles and go home if the Arena does get demolished. Exactly what is done with the site will still be something the public could have a voice in.

[Q-tip motha]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

Historic designation rejected for Civic Arena


Sadly, this fight isn't over though as the city planning commission and council will get to vote on this too. I wish people would just move along and allow the thing to be torn down and let us get some good development in that area.

In an ideal world the arena would be torn down and replaced with office buildings, high end apartments, retail options, and possibly another market district grocery store for residents of downtown/the hill and surrounding neighborhoods to make use of.

Given the city's history of promising developments (Allegheny Center Mall, Bedford Dwellings, the impact of 279 cutting through the northside, and the Arena itself) and the reality that occured after they were completed I get the feeling that the most likely outcome of the space currently occupied by the arena will be additional parking for the Consol Energy center or downtown. Its the cheapest and most assured way to make money off of the space with the least amount of investment.

Personally (as someone who's only lived in the city for 4 years now and doesn't have a problem 'moving along') I'm curious to see what the impact of developing the area would be on downtown and the hill. How will, for instance, additional retail affect downtown businesses that are already struggling with the lack of parking and a weekend crowd? How will the new businesses affect the residents of the Hill or surrounding neighborhoods? Nothing is guaranteed as a success with these projects. Remember, there have been quite a few supposed 'sure thing' planned developments (one of them being the arena) in the city that have been worse for the area than had they not been built at all. Too many failed promises for me to think that its worth removing the structure. I'd rather see it repurposed than turned into a parking lot for the Pens and downtown work crowd.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Q-tip motha

Given the city's history of promising developments (Allegheny Center Mall, Bedford Dwellings, the impact of 279 cutting through the northside, and the Arena itself) and the reality that occured after they were completed I get the feeling that the most likely outcome of the space currently occupied by the arena will be additional parking for the Consol Energy center or downtown.

You seem to have ended your history decades ago. Since then, there have been successful brownfield redevelopments (e.g., South Side Works), the development area between the new North Shore stadiums is actually filling in, and there was even a successful residential development in the Lower Hill (Crawford Square). In this case, there is a contract between the Penguins and the SEA which requires them to redevelop the site in stages over ten years.

I really hope that once the Arena issue is past us, this sort of blanket fatalism fades away.

I'm curious to see what the impact of developing the area would be on downtown and the hill. How will, for instance, additional retail affect downtown businesses that are already struggling with the lack of parking and a weekend crowd? How will the new businesses affect the residents of the Hill or surrounding neighborhoods? Nothing is guaranteed as a success with these projects.

During the long, long review process, the Penguins presented some studies on these issues. Since then, the market numbers have only gotten more promising. There is every reason to believe that if you do a decent mix of office, residential, and retail, you can help create more demand and build on the current success of both Downtown and Oakland. Meanwhile, we already know that thanks to conscious efforts, people in the Hill have been able to get jobs out of Consol, and there is no reason to think that those efforts couldn't be expanded to the rest of this site as it generates even more jobs.

Now the Reuse people responded with the argument that basically, it was hopeless for the City to try to compete with the suburbs for business, people, and retail activity. That's nonsense, and in fact there is plenty of evidence that central urban areas are becoming increasingly competitive, with various factors likely to push that trend further going forward.

Of course these are complex issues and there are no guarantees. Still, the idea that the City shouldn't even try to compete with the suburbs is baseless and extremely short-sighted, and I honestly believe most of the people making that argument wouldn't be doing so if it didn't happen to serve their immediate desire to save the Arena.

[gg]

Maybe they can relocate the Pittsburgh Public Market into the Civic arena?

Strip District development depends on state approval - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

[BrianTH]

The Strip is the perfect place for a public market. Why mess with a good thing?

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by Impala26

This can't really happen because of the way the street grid was laid out after Crosstown Blvd. (I-579) was built.

Here's a street map circa 1928 of the Lower Hill

You can see that a lot has changed in the various reconstruction since then. Most notably Wiley and Bedford Avenues being cut back behind the arena with Centre Ave. being extended to Sixth Ave. The grid was almost entirely rebuilt in the area around Sixth Ave. and Ross St.

So restoring the street grid to its original form can't really happen, but making a newer, more "filled-in" grid is of course still possible.

As for the arena it looks like the writing is on the wall unfortunately. I would really like to see it intuitively recycled, but I suppose we have to settle for parking lots and bland buildings instead, of which I think will bring more to outside benefactors than the actual residents of the Hill.

I still think there should be an effort to bring in some more creative minds and back it with a monetary reward for a reuse of the Arena.

The hope is to re-knit the Hill to downtown but as I've said before I think I-579 is a permanent barrier. I've seen it in Atlanta as the I-75/I=85 connector has effectively split the city into two halves. An expressway, even elevated or with bridges over it, is a psychological barrier. Only burying that highway will allow a reconnect of the Hill to Downtown.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I still think there should be an effort to bring in some more creative minds and back it with a monetary reward for a reuse of the Arena.

What makes you think wasting money on a competition will get any better result than what all the people who have tried so far have produced? Those people include accomplished professional architects.

You can offer a big cash prize for the best perpetual motion machine, but none of them is actually going to work.

Only burying that highway will allow a reconnect of the Hill to Downtown.

Fortunately it is already under grade. The plan is (or at least was) to build a deck-park over it between the bridges.