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Old 05-04-2011, 11:04 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,871,363 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
This is what has happened for the past 30-40 years. Everyone wants to throw money at the same thing over and over again just to keep the peace. . . . Nothing will change if the same path is used forever.
Hey, look at that, you are saying I am defending the status quo.

Someone owes me a million bucks.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:06 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,553,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robrobrob View Post
Two kids could start a snowball effect.
Certainly - there is some real mathematical probability of that happening. Perhaps you could calculate it for me and let me know.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:07 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,871,363 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
Lobbyists representing the two groups most wedded to the status quo, boards and their administrators, have produced information which defends the status quo. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Indeed.

That said, I think there are some problems with selling consolidation as a money-saving device. That will probably be true in cases of really small districts, but it may not be true of medium-sized districts.

I think we have been giving the real arguments for consolidation here. And I don't think they end with consolidation--consolidation is just part of the process to allow us to adopt better policies with respect to schools, and that is what ultimately matters (the actual schools).
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:08 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,777,749 times
Reputation: 17378
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I bet you a million dollars you will keep insisting I am defending the status quo. And I don't have to worry about paying up no matter what you do, because as you say, you don't actually read my posts.
What do you plan to do with the countless disadvantaged students in the city? Keep them where they are and nothing changes. No way are people with means going to send their kids to PPS, going through metal detectors and looking out for bullets on the way home. You have to know that is true. What is the answer almighty one? There is only one. Dispersal of current residents to make the percentages of disadvantaged students to a tolerable level for people with means to move into the city and actually use the PPS system. If you know of another way, I am waiting for the great answer. If you say the word "again", I just can't get by that.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:10 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,871,363 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
True and that everyone starts with individuals who make up "everyone". Talk about a tough nut to crack!
Nonsense. People paying more taxes starts with a law that changes the tax code, it doesn't start with individuals volunteering more taxes.

It is the same thing with schools. A better school system will be achieved by better school laws and practices, not individuals acting in isolation.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:11 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,777,749 times
Reputation: 17378
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Indeed. It is also the same as people saying if you really believe in global warming, you shouldn't fly in airplanes. And so on.
The time is probably nearer than many want to admit that our lifestyle will have to change. It will probably be within 80 years because of mass flooding of very populated areas. Talk about a migration. Wow! Happy I will be dead, but grandkids will be here to see it. I feel for them.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:13 AM
 
781 posts, read 1,612,410 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
2008 Midwestern U.S. Floods

People in the Midwest picked themselves up. No looting and complaints. People pulling together and making the best of it. In N.O. many people were just waiting for government to do as much as they could for them. It was a sharp contrast in the two areas.

Before people get all jumpy or whatever, I would like to see government help people in the US. That is obvious, but I am talking about how people react and am talking about a general view of both areas.
What dome were they housed in? How many people died?
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:14 AM
 
Location: United States
12,390 posts, read 7,047,532 times
Reputation: 6134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Of course schools alone can't fix all the problems of concentrated poverty. So that can't be our measure (whether or not the school in question has completely eliminated all those problems for the relevant kids).
I haven't seen any plan (on this forum, or anywhere else) that would have any real effect on poverty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
...what makes you think things wouldn't have been worse for the relevant kids in General Braddock? We have a similar real-world test case, Wilkinsburg. For most of its existence, Woodland Hills has outperformed Wilkinsburg as one would expect, and in fact despite the problems in Woodland Hills today, it is still outperforming Wilkinsburg. In that sense, I think the notion that all those kids would have been no worse off in General Braddock requires a dramatic failure of imagination.
I agree, that test score would be worse in a General Braddock district, than in Woodland Hills. However, the overall success was very minimal, and the cost was the loss of several good districts, and a many other negative effects to the boroughs in the district. That cost is unacceptable to many people, for such a minimal improvement, for so few people in the district.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Poverty is unlikely to go away completely, but we know that it is possible to do better, because other developed countries are in fact doing better. Again, not being able to completely eliminate a problem isn't a reason to do nothing at all.
What other developed countries? Do they have 300+ million people, millions of minorities than overall just haven't done well, or millions of illegal aliens that they are obligated to educate? You can't compare this country to any other, the scale, and particular problems aren't the same.

I agree, that not being able to completely eliminate a problem isn't a reason to do nothing at all, but again, I haven't seen a plan that will make any real improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I personally see no future for an independent Wilkinsburg School District, so I believe the "What next?" ultimately has to be a merger. Again, a handful of parents using their kids for symbolic gestures won't make a real difference, and barring a radical transformation of the overall student population in the near future, I don't think it is possible to achieve acceptable schools in an independent Wilkinsburg.
So merge with what district? Pittsburgh is the only real option at this time, what about all the people in Pittsburgh that don't want the merger? Their hasn't been a merger to this point because of all the opposition.

Again, it's not that I'm against mergers, but I know they cause many problems. Those problems need to be carefully looked at to decide if it is worth it for the minimal improvement for a small numbers of students.

It's a difficult problem, and people's perspectives are largely based on the quality of the district one lives in.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:14 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,777,749 times
Reputation: 17378
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post

It is the same thing with schools. A better school system will be achieved by better school laws and practices, not individuals acting in isolation.
That is your answer? Wait for government to improve Pittsburgh? This is it?

It takes money from investors to change things, not waiting around for some government to pretend they know what to do. I am in shock at your answer!
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:20 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,553,077 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Incidentally, while I don't have a problem with people who use charters, I should note that since we are using a private school, we are not taking a dime out of the Wilkinsburg schools.
Likewise, since I've probably worked down exactly the same decision-tree, I have nothing whatever against private schools, but I think it's important to point out that

a) Charters are public schools - public education money spent by charter schools is money spent on public education.

b) Charter school students receive on average about 85% of their per capita share of their home district's budget - no charter student takes a dime more than their fair share.
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