Pittsburgh School District (Wilkinsburg, Fox Chapel, Sharpsburg: credit, gated, subdivisions)

[robrobrob]

Brian and Curtis don't get along. In short they think differently. One is an optimist and the other is a realist. Brian favors an urban lifestyle and all of the benefits that go with it. He will make do with his public school/ charter school options. When his child begins school he will have to make the tough call about where he will go to school. Charter, private or public? He might even flea to burbs when his child gets older. It won't be the first time. Curtis on the other hand has already fled the city for the burbs. Picking a location based on schools. Curtis and Brian differ on where they want to live. For Brian location is key, for Curtis public schools are key. Curtis points out an areas problems and Brian points out an areas strengths.

I have followed this forum to know enough that both of them take things way to personally.

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I have followed this forum to know enough that both of them take things way to personally.

When we have our forum meet-up I'm going to give each of them $5 to hug!

[stburr91]

I'm not trying to speak for, or defend Curtis, but I can see where is coming from. When you have a real exposure to the underbelly of poverty, it changes you. I think Curtis has had more exposure to poverty than many others on here, and that is why he has a different opinion than those that haven't seen it as closely.

ETA, I'll throw in another $5 to see Brian and Curtis hug.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

In short they think differently.

They certainly do, but you didn't mention the most obvious difference: Brian's views are morally defensible.

[gg]

There is an old saying and in my experience, it holds very true. You cannot help those who don't want to help themselves. You can throw as much money around to all kind of things, but money isn't the answer. I think the difference in Brian and myself is I have witnessed first hand what happened to East Hills (one example) which was the place my mother would take me shopping when I was a kid. I also watched other areas fall. There were some good schools in Pittsburgh back then. I am talking about over 35 years ago! The people that moved into East Hills for example had a nice area. Look what happened to that place. It was nice. 35 YEARS + and NOTHING GOOD HAS HAPPENED since!!! I have had it. The truth needs to be told. You cannot help those that don't want it. People are looking for that handout and the handouts are not helping and the handouts are starting to dry up. People are learning that money doesn't fix this. If things are going to change the people need to change and it needs to be from within, not from the outside. Outsiders just hurt the process because no pride comes from handouts.

The difference is I saw all this stuff happen. Brian didn't. I watched the destruction of areas. Brian didn't. Sure it is easy to live in fantasy land if you didn't watch all this. I know throwing money at this doesn't work. I know merging schools is bad. I know if there are more than about 10% disadvantaged, the school is sunk and caring parents move or send kids to privates schools VERY FAST. How do I know? I have seen it with my own eyes over and over again. I lived this stuff and didn't need to read it in some book.

[squarian]

And regarding this hugging twaddle - one of the things most glaringly wrong with this country is its absurd fetish for "bi-partisanship" hugging. Gestures of amity mean nothing to the future.

[BrianTH]

Just for the record:

(A) I do in fact have a child, as I have repeatedly noted. We opted for private school.

(B) I've actually had a lot of exposure to poverty in my adult life--for whatever reason, I keep ending up in neighborhoods with mixed incomes, near neighborhoods which are fairly poor.

It may sound harsh, but this really isn't about me being sheltered and h_curtis being worldly. The difference is that I see what concentrated poverty does to people, and my instinct is to think about ways to help those people. h_curtis sees what concentrated poverty does to a neighborhood, and his instinct is to get rid of all the poor people so the neighborhood will be nicer.

So it is a difference in basic values. But for whatever reason, h_curtis is unwilling to admit that, maybe not even to himself.

[gg]

Originally Posted by squarian

They certainly do, but you didn't mention the most obvious difference: Brian's views are morally defensible.

No they are not. They are bandaids that have been tried for decades. Guess what? The bandaids don't work. Read my other post. Pride comes from within, not from someone giving you handouts all the time. You know what that breads? Laziness and a society that feels "they owe me man". You think you are doing right, but you aren't. You are throwing a bandaid on the issues and hoping it helps. Problem is, they haven't helped in decades. Not a few years. DECADES!

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by squarian

They certainly do, but you didn't mention the most obvious difference: Brian's views are morally defensible.

I thought the most obvious difference was that Brian's views are generally rational and backed up with citations.

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Just for the record:

(A) I do in fact have a child, as I have repeatedly noted. We opted for private school.

(B) I've actually had a lot of exposure to poverty in my adult life--for whatever reason, I keep ending up in neighborhoods with mixed incomes, near neighborhoods which are fairly poor.

It may sound harsh, but this really isn't about me being sheltered and h_curtis being worldly. The difference is that I see what concentrated poverty does to people, and my instinct is to think about ways to help those people. h_curtis sees what concentrated poverty does to a neighborhood, and his instinct is to get rid of all the poor people so the neighborhood will be nicer.

So it is a difference in basic values. But for whatever reason, h_curtis is unwilling to admit that, maybe not even to himself.

I have no problem relocating people out of prime property if they have been there for decades and destroyed the area. I agree.

I feel people need to pick themselves up. I have more confidence in humans of all kinds than you do. You have no confidence in disadvantaged and just want to throw enough money at them to have them survive and get by. I want them to pick themselves up and become better. So yes, there are differences in how we think. i have lived here a long time and know what you want to keep doing never worked. Why continue on the same path that has failed for decades? I have no idea, but I am against it.