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Also, what does the fact the across the board hourly compensation has been increasing in the private sector have to do with anything?
You claimed that somehow the public sector would have to be "exempt" from "market realities" to not be "getting equally competent workers at reduced wages." I'm pointing out that apparently the private sector also got this "exemption" you are speaking of.
Generally, I'm all for not assuming there are simple answers to these questions as applied to any given job or industry. But that is exactly what you were trying to do--make some sort of general claim about "market realities" as applied to public sectors workers. If you agree with me that sort of generalized approach is worthless, then great, we can forget this little conversation ever happened.
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I am suggesting that there is an oversupply of workers available for the position in question in this thread (teaching) and thus the market realities of oversupply is to push down the wages.
Based on what evidence?
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Why do you think so many new graduates with teaching certifications from PA move to areas such as the Carolinas to teach?
Why does Saudi Arabia export oil? It is because a lot of oil is produced there.
We do the same thing in Western PA: we produce a lot of teachers, and therefore export a large number of them.
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It is not that the pay is better (it is much worse), it is because there are not enough job openings in our area for them to fill, hence you could lower the pay scale and still have capable people to fill those positions.
We're always going to be a teacher-exporting region (barring a huge baby boom). So the mere fact we export new teachers doesn't imply we have mispriced local teaching jobs--we'd still be exporting the same number at any price, because we don't have the local need to absorb any more.
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When you are dealing with taxpayer funded positions the budget minders should have an obligation to pay out the absolute minimum in salaries and benefits that the market will allow (so that you sill have competant people to fill the positions), and I do not believe for a minute that that threshold is even close to being met hence the fighting over the few coveted positions that do open up.
Again, here you are using your own intuition, not looking at market results. If districts and teachers have equivalent bargaining power, then the result we are getting is the market result. The fact you just can't believe that is the market result is really not relevant.
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Factor in the perks that many public positions in question here give (i.e less working hours; more time off, tenure, much more flexibility in regards to things like sick days, paid for continuing education, pensions, etc) and you are really comparing apples to oranges when you say 'on average private sector hourly compensation has been increasing, so therefore all public sector wages need to go up too' .
Again, I was just pointing out your original argument--that public sector workers somehow needed an exemption from market realities to not see wage cuts in the current environment--was based on a false premise.
Otherwise--I just don't believe you or I (or other posters here) are in any position to just pull appropriate compensation for teachers out of thin air. So if that is your game, I'm not playing it. But if you want to actually talk about market pricing, fine--but then you have to be prepared for the fact the market price may not agree with your intuition.
Otherwise--I just don't believe you or I (or other posters here) are in any position to just pull appropriate compensation for teachers out of thin air. So if that is your game, I'm not playing it. But if you want to actually talk about market pricing, fine--but then you have to be prepared for the fact the market price may not agree with your intuition.
Now, I concede that I do not have specific data as to what the specific optimal salary of what the lowest one can pay a teacher in our area amd still get a quality professional to fill the position, but I have enough anecedotal evidence to show that the current salary structure is above this rate. The above numbers show public teachers make much more then their private counterparts; You say yourself we are a teacher-exporting region, thus that means that we have more teachers than available positions, and thus we could lower the pay rate and still easily fill the postions since there is an overabundance in the local supply of available teachers.
What evidence do those that argue the contrary, that wages and benefits must indefinately increase and never, ever decrease or even hold steady, have to support them?
The taxpaying middle income public cannot be endlessly milked to pay public workers ever increasing salaries and benefits regardless of how nice doing so would be.
Fine, then at least compare private vs public pay in the same positions
It is extraordinarily difficult to try to do a reliable comparison between private and public school teacher compensation. There are different requirements, different compensation models, different teaching conditions, religious affiliations can play a role, and so on. And the public school system is just much, much bigger in total.
And again, this is a funny sort of approach to take for people who claim to respect "market realities". If you want to ascertain what the market price might be, you should start by looking at the market you are interested in, not a different market.
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You say yourself we are a teacher-exporting region, thus that means that we have more teachers than available positions, and thus we could lower the pay rate and still easily fill the postions since there is an overabundance in the local supply of available teachers.
Again, that is just incorrect economic logic. We are a teacher-exporting region because we produce more teachers than we need locally, and that would remain true at any price level. In other words, by your logic the local pay for teachers should be zero, because even at a minimum amount above zero we would still be exporting teachers by necessity, and therefore it would--by your logic--be possible to lower pay all the way to zero.
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What evidence do those that argue the contrary, that wages and benefits must indefinately increase and never, ever decrease or even hold steady, have to support them?
I don't know if anyone has actually made this argument. But the general reason that wages tend to go up in nominal terms is inflation. That is no less applicable to teachers or other public sector workers than anyone else.
Of course wages may also go up higher than inflation with productivity increases, and there is a decent argument to be made that a combination of better information technology and higher economic returns to skills have been causing increasing teaching productivity. But that is a long term issue and has little to do with wage dynamics over the short term.
Finally, if you are asking why during periods of recession don't workers in general, public or private, take small wage cuts collectively rather than tolerate some people being fired and some people continuing with the same or higher wages--that is a big topic in economics. It is an observable fact that wages are "sticky" in this sense, but exactly why is controversial. I'd just emphasize that there is really nothing distinct about public sector workers in this respect--wages are sticky in the private sector as well, as in fact that chart I provided indicates.
It is extraordinarily difficult to try to do a reliable comparison between private and public school teacher compensation. There are different requirements, different compensation models, different teaching conditions, religious affiliations can play a role, and so on. And the public school system is just much, much bigger in total.
And again, this is a funny sort of approach to take for people who claim to respect "market realities". If you want to ascertain what the market price might be, you should start by looking at the market you are interested in, not a different market.
Is private vs public teachers comparison a perfect one, no; but they are both doing the same job and it is the best comparison that is available. If you know a better comparison for public teacher salaries vs. something else I am all ears. Much better than the earlier alluded to chart showing private sector workers on average seeing a hourly pay increase and using that to correlate that teacher salaries should also be on the increase. My comparison at least shows that public teachers are much, much better paid both in real salary and benefits compared to their private counterparts.
If you really wanted to respect the market as stated above, then the actual way to do it would be to negotiate on a person by person basis and come up with the lowest salary that they will agree to work for (of a qualifies candidate). This would not be cost prohibitive or whatever other impediment people will claim as it is the way most all salaried positions in the private industry world works.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
Again, that is just incorrect economic logic. We are a teacher-exporting region because we produce more teachers than we need locally, and that would remain true at any price level. In other words, by your logic the local pay for teachers should be zero, because even at a minimum amount above zero we would still be exporting teachers by necessity, and therefore it would--by your logic--be possible to lower pay all the way to zero.
Um, I am fairly certain you would not find anyone willing to work for zero pay so that ascertain is plainly false. I am certain, however, that you would find plenty of willing workers to teach at salaries less then what is currently being paid out.
Spend just a few minutes talking to any of the numerous graduates with teaching certifications that are looking for work in the area and you will learn this. Instead of increasing classroom sizes, schools could increase the # of teachers right now if they weren't burdened by the higher than necessary salaries they are strapped with which would be much more beneficial to children's education..
(and no, its not just the teacher salaries that burden schools, but it is the subject of this thread).
Is private vs public teachers comparison a perfect one, no; but they are both doing the same job and it is the best comparison that is available. If you know a better comparison for public teacher salaries vs. something else I am all ears.
Again, why do you want to compare them to something else at all? If you want to know a market price for something, you look at the actual market in question, not the market for something else.
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If you really wanted to respect the market as stated above, then the actual way to do it would be to negotiate on a person by person basis
You mean each student would have to bargain with his or her own teachers with respect to their compensation? That's an interesting idea, but I don't think kindergarteners are really up to the task.
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Um, I am fairly certain you would not find anyone willing to work for zero pay so that ascertain is plainly false. I am certain, however, that you would find plenty of willing workers to teach at salaries less then what is currently being paid out.
So again, you are just using your intuition about market prices. My point was just that the fact that we export teachers doesn't support your intuition, because we would export teachers at any local price.
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Instead of increasing classroom sizes, schools could increase the # of teachers right now if they weren't burdened by the higher than necessary salaries they are strapped with which would be much more beneficial to children's education.
Strange that schools would be doing that, then, if it was so easy to do otherwise. Strange in general that the real world isn't following your intuitions about how it should work.
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When a private business raises the price of its product, I can choose to no longer purchase that product.
Teachers are public employees that are paid with tax payer dollars. When their product is too expensive to purchase, we do not have the ability to opt out of paying taxes. That is why we need to put a control on the cost of their product.
Again, why do you want to compare them to something else at all? If you want to know a market price for something, you look at the actual market in question, not the market for something else.
Why, because they are doing the same job and doing it for much less. All factors are not identical, but they are not substantially different either.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
You mean each student would have to bargain with his or her own teachers with respect to their compensation? That's an interesting idea, but I don't think kindergarteners are really up to the task.
Obviously thats not what was meant so I won't dwell on this any further.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
So again, you are just using your intuition about market prices. My point was just that the fact that we export teachers doesn't support your intuition, because we would export teachers at any local price.
Yes, I understand what you are saying, and yes, you are correct, we would export them at any local price because of all the universities we have in the area, however, we would not retain any teachers at just any local price. There is a price point which is the lowest that qualified job seekers will accept before automatically looking elsewhere; that is the price point that should be strived for when public money is being used. Can you at least agree that this is how the market in this case should work ?
I am saying that the price point is too high and our suplus of teachers that want to stay in the area and apply in mass for the few jobs that open up is evidence of this. If we had a hard time filling local positions, then I would be equally adament in saying that salaries need to be raised.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
Strange that schools would be doing that, then, if it was so easy to do otherwise. Strange in general that the real world isn't following your intuitions about how it should work.
They can’t; they are constrained by some bad contracts made by people who only know how to spend money (I don't fault teachers in any way for this; if I could negotiate time and time again for the moon & keep getting it I would too.)
When a private business raises the price of its product, I can choose to no longer purchase that product.
Teachers are public employees that are paid with tax payer dollars. When their product is too expensive to purchase, we do not have the ability to opt out of paying taxes. That is why we need to put a control on the cost of their product.
Simply put and true. Seems the school boards don't agree for the most part though. They just keep raising taxes and raising taxes and.... well raising taxes!
When a private business raises the price of its product, I can choose to no longer purchase that product.
Teachers are public employees that are paid with tax payer dollars. When their product is too expensive to purchase, we do not have the ability to opt out of paying taxes. That is why we need to put a control on the cost of their product.
Nice post, I completely agree.
I think it's time to freeze salaries, and phase pensions out. I don't mean to pick on just the teachers, I think we need to do this will all public employees.
Just as with health care, they will privatize education, so that if you want a good public education for your kids, you will have to pay for it.
I was thinking about this. Where do I sign up for no school tax and sending my son to a private school. I am ready today. Pass a law that I don't have to pay school tax and send him to a private school and I would rather do that. Wouldn't be much more expensive while he is in school and when he is out of school the tuition would stop. I would be so much further ahead financially.
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