The widening of the Pennsylvania Turnpike between Cranberry and New Stanton (Pittsburgh: 2013, new construction)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

In general, maybe. But a way to get to Oakland or points East/North from the South hills would have taken traffic away from the Ft Pitt Tunnels, parts of the Parkway East, the current Crosstown Boulevard, the West End Bridge, and probably even Rte 28--essentially, many of the currently-overloaded highways.

It would also have collected a bunch of traffic currently using non-highway routes along this corridor, and generally would have induced more traffic along these highway routes until they were all congested again.

We'll never be able to run the counterfactual and know for sure, but the record for projects like this has been dismal, including in Pittsburgh. And I personally think it is very likely this project wouldn't have been an exception.

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

It would also have collected a bunch of traffic currently using non-highway routes along this corridor, and generally would have induced more traffic along these highway routes until they were all congested again.

We'll never be able to run the counterfactual and know for sure, but the record for projects like this has been dismal, including in Pittsburgh. And I personally think it is very likely this project wouldn't have been an exception.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it was interesting to me because it makes all of the the other (current) road projects make more sense (in theory if not in practice). As it is, our highways look like they were drawn on the map by an angry monkey with a crayon. All of the main hwys seem to come together in one giant mess within a half-mile area downtown. There's really no way to get from one side of the city to the other without going straight through it, and I can't imagine that helps traffic (or mass transit, for that matter). As a result, a lot of the people using the roads in the city don't want to be there to begin with, and that can't possibly be good for anybody.

I imagine you're right that the congestion would just spread out to fill all available space, though.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I don't necessarily disagree, but it was interesting to me because it makes all of the the other (current) road projects make more sense (in theory if not in practice).

Sorry, you are right about that--there was a consistent vision for urban highways criss-crossing the central area, and what we see today is only part of that plan, hence their lack of consistent pattern. The vision was a deeply flawed one, but you are correctly describing the vision.

There's really no way to get from one side of the city to the other without going straight through it, and I can't imagine that helps traffic (or mass transit, for that matter). As a result, a lot of the people using the roads in the city don't want to be there to begin with, and that can't possibly be good for anybody.

The real problem is our topography, which has prevented us from having a grid of arterial streets, which is the best way for providing vehicular mobility in dense urban areas (including better than highways).

There is no direct way around that topography problem that won't cost gazillions of dollars in terms of tunneling and bridge-building. Call me crazy, but I honestly think the best solution is going to end up using aerial gondolas to provide a more grid-like rapid transit system, because that is the only transportation system which can deal with our topography at a reasonable cost.

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah, Geography is definitely the big issue. I would hurt to have the roads make a lick of sense, though.

I like the "Gondola" idea, not sure how feasible it is, but interesting. Anything to get cars off the road (or get them to where they're going faster) is worth thinking about.

[bboy36win]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Call me crazy, but I honestly think the best solution is going to end up using aerial gondolas to provide a more grid-like rapid transit system, because that is the only transportation system which can deal with our topography at a reasonable cost.

Among the skeptics: the people that have been stranded on the Boyce Park ski lift the past few winters.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I like the "Gondola" idea, not sure how feasible it is, but interesting.

They are already using them for public transit in several other cities, and London is looking to add one (to get a new Thames crossing). They don't solve every conceivable transportation problem, but if you are specifically looking to avoid spending billions on tunnels and bridges, they do that pretty well.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by bboy36win

Among the skeptics: the people that have been stranded on the Boyce Park ski lift the past few winters.

Yep, reliability has to be addressed, but done right (with appropriate backup systems and maintenance and such) they are just as reliable as any other mode of transportation--more so than most, in fact.

[lifepgh2op]

Originally Posted by hempfield mania

I just wish PGH had a proper limited access loop to divert traffic from downtown proper.

That's what I would like too, along with more public transportation (light rail), would be a nice beltway. Thinking along the lines of I-695 in Baltimore.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by lifepgh2op

That's what I would like too, along with more public transportation (light rail), would be a nice beltway. Thinking along the lines of I-695 in Baltimore.

They're trying to get a partial beltway built across the southern and western suburbs of Pittsburgh, but there have been some delays. That region sorely needs better east-west access. The main arterial roads in that area -- U.S. 19, PA 51 and PA 88 -- are all north-south roads. There is literally no direct route between the Monongahela River Valley and I-79, let alone Pittsburgh International Airport.

I think that when that beltway gets built, it will justify its construction sooner than people think. As for people who are worried about sprawl, it doesn't happen along toll roads. There's more suburbia along I-79 than there is along the Pennsylvania Turnpike. In fact, the only time you can even detect suburban Pittsburgh along the Turnpike is near Cranberry and Monroeville, where other Interstates intersect.

[Penguins Fan]

Try the Pennsylvania Turnpike at Thanksgiving or Christmastime or any big holiday. Breezewood is terrible, but will never change. There needs to be three lanes each way between New Stanton and Breezewood and anyone who says there is no need of it has never driven this tretch of highway at anytime near a peak period.