Pgh Public Schools to lay off a lot of people. Wow (Wilkinsburg: neighborhoods, middle school)

[Bong477]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I agree that you can't look at just that chart and get a sense of where we will go from here. And again, it isn't helping the situation that some people with a great deal of influence over policy--to the point of having veto power over crucial areas--are more interested in defeating Obama than helping the economy.

But that chart is very useful to rebut a particular talking point, namely the common talking point that once Obama took office, the economic situation got worse. That is a laughably false talking point, which the chart makes clear.

If you spread out the chart to look at the entire Bush presidency where job growth was quite impressive up until the the last year or so of his presidency (all that chart shows) when the economy completely tanked due to the subprime economic crisis (which in fairness Bush absolutely takes some responsibility for as the ship "captain", but so do a lot of other parties including the democrat controlled Congress and greedy financial companies as the "other hands on the wheel")... you could use that to rebut the talking point which is that Bush destroyed jobs while Obama stopped the bleeding and is now creating them.

The economy will recover, I have no doubt about that... how much the huge amount of government spending that took place over the past 2-3 years really contributed to that and what the impact of that spending on our country's future will be are what I wonder about.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by FrannyBear

Guess it's time to go feed my chickens, clean my guns and watch Hee Haw while you brainiacs keep running the country into the ground.

Don't be so defeatist and passive. Get out, take part, go to a Tea Party rally.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by Bong477

The economy will recover, I have no doubt about that...

How do you say that in Japanese?

[gg]

Originally Posted by squarian

Nah - it'd be much cheaper for the taxpayer to staff schools with convicts. Put those criminal scum to work educating our children, dammit! This madness of paying teachers must stop.

When people start writing like you have above, I know your argument really thin. No one wants that extreme silly viewpoint that you stated and it has nothing to do with a conversation regarding teacher's pay. It is a scare tactic and nothing more.

Bottom line is paying teachers the money we are is totally unsustainable and looking near term only. Sure the teachers of today are very happy making that kind of money and having free healthcare, but we have been living on credit cards at the national/state and local level governments for far too long. It is time to tighten the belt and get back on track. How can anyone tighten a belt around here when teachers are making the money they do with those huge pensions? The costs of that are way out of line for our area. It is going to kill schools as a whole since we are being forced to change our ways due to living WAY over our means for the past decade +. You know what is going to happen when you have the kind of pay scale teachers do around our region? Layoffs and much worse teacher/student ratios. Who will pay the price then?

No one is saying to cut teacher's pay to some super low rate, but there needs to be a freeze or a slight reduction. It doesn't work because we are not sustaining with our own money. We are spending our kid's money and I don't think it is fair to leave them all these debts when we are gone. It is pretty sad!

[TelecasterBlues]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

When people start writing like you have above, I know your argument really thin. No one wants that extreme silly viewpoint that you stated and it has nothing to do with a conversation regarding teacher's pay. It is a scare tactic and nothing more.

Bottom line is paying teachers the money we are is totally unsustainable and looking near term only. Sure the teachers of today are very happy making that kind of money and having free healthcare, but we have been living on credit cards at the national/state and local level governments for far too long. It is time to tighten the belt and get back on track. How can anyone tighten a belt around here when teachers are making the money they do with those huge pensions? The costs of that are way out of line for our area. It is going to kill schools as a whole since we are being forced to change our ways due to living WAY over our means for the past decade +.

This type of crap makes me so damned angry...yes, there are tons of districts out there that overpay and have teachers who still complain about their salaries and need to be slapped. Just look at any affluent district in the general Pittsburgh metro and that should be the case. But otherwise, most districts aren't doing anything crazy with their salaries and yes we do pay into our healthcare...the average district in my neck of the woods starts in the $35k range and maxes after about 15 years at 70k. Poorer districts start in the low $30s or even high $20s and max out after 20 or more years between $60-$65. Within the Pittsburgh metro, most start betwen $40-$45k and max around $80k after 15 years.....then your scattering of country club districts start betwen $45-$50k with maxes in the $90-100k range after about 10-14 years. Yes, those last numbers are ridiculous, but if you have what it takes to attract the best in the business and the tax base to make it happen...then why not? Sure enough, those districts which pay through the roof are some of the best in the entire country....you get what you pay for. Personally, I'd never have any interest in any of that and do agree that it's crazy. But don't generalize all teachers as making too much...because I know plenty of people who won't see the other side of $40k until putting in at least 4-8 years of work. Some won't even see $35k a year in that time frame.

I know that I could easily land a higher salary in the private sector by comparison...my take home pay per paycheck is about $850, if I'm making too much then I sincerely spread the "sorrys" to all in the world that I'm depriving of happiness and causing such pain.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

I know your argument really thin...It is a scare tactic and nothing more.

There is a difference between argument and satire. Sorry if I scared you.

paying teachers the money we are is totally unsustainable

There are so many unsustainables. Defence spending is unsustainable. The Senate filibuster is unsustainable. Health costs (see chart, above) are unsustainable. University tuition is unsustainable. Campaign financing is, and so is our political culture generally. Dependence on fossil fuels is, too.

Any two or three of these are sufficient to kill. Teacher salaries are a minor problem, like psoriasis in a terminal cancer patient.

[gg]

Originally Posted by FrannyBear

Accept a little responsibility for his failures. He is a disaster.

When he didn't cut military spending, which should be cut in half, I did lose hope for him, but if you feel an economy can bounce back as fast as a few years, you have a lot to learn. I would rather see a slow recovery which is more healthy in the long run.

I don't care for the current path all that much, but sometimes the better of two evils is all we have. In 2012, I think everyone will be looking for a better of two evils again.

[gg]

Originally Posted by squarian

There are so many unsustainables. Defence spending is unsustainable. The Senate filibuster is unsustainable. Health costs (see chart, above) are unsustainable. University tuition is unsustainable. Campaign financing is, and so is our political culture generally. Dependence on fossil fuels is, too.

Any two or three of these are sufficient to kill. Teacher salaries are a minor problem, like psoriasis in a terminal cancer patient.

Agreed, until the last sentence. If we have a subject on schools that is the subject. I feel the current pay scale is unsustainable in our region. That is this topic. I fully agree on everything you stated in the first paragraph and the military one is disgusting! Shows how fear can take hold with ease in the political arena.

[gg]

Originally Posted by TelecasterBlues

But don't generalize all teachers as making too much...because I know plenty of people who won't see the other side of $40k until putting in at least 4-8 years of work. Some won't even see $35k a year in that time frame.

I agree, there are plenty of areas that don't pay well. Most just don't have that kind of money in the region. My biggest gripe is the fact that many districts cannot balance a budget now, let alone the fact that they promise these teachers the world and then they are going to be paying amazing pensions and probably even more in salary in 20 years from now. What happens then? You have a $300K home and pay $20K a year in tax for school? I will be too old to have two jobs then and will be forced to move. How much money are you going to have to retire in the Pittsburgh area in 20 years? The teacher's unions are doing the same thing as PAT bus. Getting promised so much now and have no way of paying it later. It is going to be one big mess.

People are living for today and really don't care at all about the future. These promises have longterm consequences. Maybe today things can be sustained, but I had hopes of living in Pittsburgh when I retire. It might not be a doable thing.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

I agree, there are plenty of areas that don't pay well....You have a $300K home and pay $20K a year in tax for school?...I had hopes of living in Pittsburgh when I retire. It might not be a doable thing.

Do you have FCSD's budget figures? I find it very difficult to pry budget info from Wilkinsbg SD, and one simple reform I'd like to see in PA is a requirement to post budgets for all districts on the DoE website, in a way similar to AYP and test data. It seems to me you're assuming that teacher salaries/benefits make up the largest element (and largest growth) in district budgets. Do we know that?

Secondly, your issue is property tax rates - in other words, it seems to me you are really concerned with education funding, rather than wanting to see teachers paid less on principle. Living in Wilkinsburg as I do, I have some sympathy. Shouldn't the question be expanded to consideration of alternatives to prop taxes as the main funding source? Seems to me that attacking teacher salaries is a blunt instrument if the issue is the overall financing of schools and therefore the tax burden they impose.