08-11-2011, 11:53 AM
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5 Myths About the Poor Middle Class
3.5 years old, so a bit dated, but interesting none-the-less...
"2. The middle class is shrinking.
True, fewer people today live in households with incomes between $30,000 and $100,000 (a reasonable definition of "middle class") than in 1979. But the number of people in households that bring in more than $100,000 also rose from 12 percent to 24 percent. There was no increase in the percentage of people in households making less than $30,000. So the entire "decline" of the middle class came from people moving up the income ladder. For married couples, median incomes have grown in inflation-adjusted dollars by 25 percent since 1979. "
08-11-2011, 12:53 PM
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That's a very strangely structured argument. But it is true that what has happened is that household incomes in the middle have "only" grown very slowly, whereas household incomes at the top have increased much more rapidly.
The thing is, though, that real per capita GDP has also been increasing rapidly--it is just that most of those productivity gains have gone to the benefit of the highest-income people. And the fact that real per capita GDP gains are primarily benefiting only a few people at the top should not be an acceptable result--those gains can and should be more widespread, and the fact they aren't more widespread has been contributing to our recent economic crises.
Incidentally, I've posted this before recently, but it is really helpful to visualize what has been happening:
The State of the USA | Measuring Economic Well-being: GDP vs. Median Income
The middle has gained a bit over the last 40 years, but not nearly as much as they should have given the rise in economic productivity.
08-11-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Treima
I don't remember the last time a strawman argument was effective...but hey it's worth the old college try.
Well...the "unionized public employee, a Tea Partier, and a CEO are sitting at a table" joke was a strawman argument too.
08-11-2011, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ditchdigger
Because business figured out that they could ship the jobs to the non-union world. It's not because unions, and the ability of workers to bargain collectively, became irrelevant.
They are in a sense irrelevant if they lose their worker base. Work can be outsourced around the world as everyone here knows. The unions' last bastion of hope is the public sector as those jobs tend to be monopolies and the jobs can be held hostage at the ballot box. The problem with public sector unions is that they breed mediocrity as it becomes almost impossible to remove bad employees and the workplace itself gets tied up in union rules as to who can do what. I mean, in a union environment, you couldn't move a desk. Only a union worker that is authorized to do it can move it. The workplace loses flexibility and has too much staff. Plus the union has to justify itself by always demanding more from the employer until it's unsustainable what with great vacation, sick leave, and health benefits and finally, the crushing retirement benefits complete with full health coverage. That's what brought down Detroit. Many guys working on the assembly lines were wealthy and retired making much more than the average worker today.
Quote:
I don't think anybody in their right mind would argue that the CEO doesn't deserve some cookies, maybe even a lot of cookies. The problem today is that the CEOs of the world are taking eleven cookies, and leaving only one to be divided among everybody else. That's the place of unions, both then and now--to bargain for something more along the lines of five cookies for the CEO and five for everybody else to share.
That's why I think we should ensure we have a free market. So workers can seek other employment that pays better. And an open market that encourages new businesses to expand the employment base.
08-11-2011, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BrianTH
But they didn't mix the ingredients or bake the cookies.
So what? The CEO controls the resources. No one forced the worker to bake the cookies for that particular CEO. If the worker doesn't like the deal, he is more than welcome to quit and find a different job. Or better yet, use his own resources to make something for himself.
Quote:
There is very little evidence to suggest unions typically have that effect. In fact, several studies have found that unions help increase productivity.
Really? Can you please post links? Unions create an economic wage floor that results in net market deadweight loss. How is that beneficial to the society as a whole?
EDIT:
Here is a commentary written by Christopher Pissarides, a Nobel Laureates in Economics. It is written specifically about Britain, but union effects in Britain and The United States are one and the same.
Quote:
Unemployment in Britain has fallen from high European-style levels to US levels. I argue that the key reasons are first the reform of monetary policy, in 1993 with the adoption of inflation targeting and in 1997 with the establishment of the independent Monetary Policy Committee, and second the decline of trade union power. I interpret the reform of monetary policy as an institutional change that reduced inflationary expectations in the face of falling unemployment. The decline of trade union power contributed to the control of wage inflation. The major continental economies failed to match UK performance because of institutional rigidities, despite low inflation expectations.
Translation: fewer unions means less unemployment. Just something else to think about.
Last edited by hnsq; 08-11-2011 at 03:03 PM ..
08-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Location: Wilkinsburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ditchdigger
The problem today is that the CEOs of the world are taking eleven cookies, and leaving only one to be divided among everybody else. That's the place of unions, both then and now--to bargain for something more along the lines of five cookies for the CEO and five for everybody else to share.
In 2008 S&P500 aggregate
earnings were about $587 Billion. The aggregate CEO compensation for S&P500 companies in 2008 was approximately $4.5 Billion. Let's say that by "CEOs" we're actually referring to executive management, so to take this into account we'll multiply the CEO pay by a factor of ten, or $45 Billion. The ratio of aggregate executive management compensation to aggregate S&P500 earnings is 7.45%. So the CEOs are actually taking 7.45% of the cookies, or 0.89 cookies.
Admittedly the cookie per person ratio would be WAY off (approximately 284 times by my estimate).
Regardless, I'd say that your argument, in general, is still fine.
08-11-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
hnsq
So what? The CEO controls the resources.
Labor is a resource.
By the way, I should have noted sooner that the CEO as such is actually just another employee. Presumably you mean "CEO" to stand in for the people who actually supplied capital to the business.
Quote:
No one forced the worker to bake the cookies for that particular CEO. If the worker doesn't like the deal, he is more than welcome to quit and find a different job. Or better yet, use his own resources to make something for himself.
I'm actually not sure what point you are trying to make. If the person who supplied the ingredients/oven and the baker don't agree to collaborate, then no cookies get baked. Presumably they agreed to collaborate because they each thought they would benefit. None of that tells you anything about how many cookies each should get.
So I'm just objecting to the notion that somehow the person who supplies the oven and the ingredients is inherently in a different position from the person who supplies the labor. Those are all necessary factors in the productive process.
Quote:
Really? Can you please post links?
Already done.
Quote:
Unions create an economic wage floor that results in net market deadweight loss. How is that beneficial to the society as a whole?
It actually isn't much of mystery why this would be true. Lower-wage workers may well be less productive workers. Unions also negotiate for things like better training, better health care, safer and more pleasant workplace environments, and other things that could contribute to productivity.
But maximizing productivity isn't necessarily in the interests of upper management--maximizing their own compensation is presumably their goal, and they may make more money for themselves even if their firm is less productive provided that they can get for themselves a larger share of the firm's income. In other words, even if fewer cookies are baked, if they can keep more of the cookies out of the hands of the other workers, they may personally end up with more cookies that way. Unions are thus likely serving the function of helping to cut off practices that would be bad for firm productivity, but good for upper management.
I'd have to see the details of your deadweight loss argument to understand where you are going wrong. But at a guess, you are modeling this as a transaction between the prospective employees and the firm as an abstract concept, with the firm's interest being in maximizing productivity. In the real world, it is a transaction between the prospective employee and upper management, with the implications I just noted.
Edit: By the way, it is a little strange to talk about collective bargaining creating "deadweight loss" in this context, because it presumes certain alternatives. To flip the point around, most firms "collectively bargain" automatically--individual units typically don't have the discretion to negotiate compensation and hire as they see fit. So by restricting individual units from freely transacting for labor, are firms thereby creating a "deadweight loss"?
So I also suspect this argument depends on assuming the existence of the union is a variable, but the existence of the firm is not. But you'd have to explain why we should approach the problem in that way, as opposed to either assuming they are both variables, or in fact neither is.
Last edited by BrianTH; 08-11-2011 at 03:37 PM ..
08-11-2011, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
hnsq
It is written specifically about Britain, but union effects in Britain and The United States are one and the same.
As an aside, actually, no--some studies have found notably different productivity effects in the U.K. and United States.
Quote:
Translation: fewer unions means less unemployment. Just something else to think about.
That's actually a much, much better argument than the unions hampering economic growth argument.
From a worker's perspective, you'd have to trade getting a higher share of higher productivity gains against higher unemployment risk. With the right sort of measures to deal with unemployment in place (and a generally flexible labor market), that might not be a bad deal. But it is a serious issue worth considering.
08-11-2011, 04:42 PM
Location: Perry South, Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
MathmanMathman
Well...the "unionized public employee, a Tea Partier, and a CEO are sitting at a table" joke was a strawman argument too.
Of course, but it's a strawman THEY agree with!
08-11-2011, 05:41 PM
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Just for the record, a satirical joke is not a logical argument, and while one might argue that joke embodied an unfair caricature, it is a category error to compare such a caricature to a strawman argument.
I'd also note some of the subsequent discussion in this thread undermines the claim that the relevant caricature was terribly unfair.
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Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)