Occupy Pittsburgh is pretty big. (Washington, Wall: mortgage, house, closing)

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'd agree it is possible Occupy is just changing the nature of public discourse, and not actually changing people's thoughts. But that alone is a significant accomplishment.

OK, I'll go along with this one I guess. I suppose it all comes down to whether or not you think it's a significant accomplishment. I'm not impressed, but so what? More importantly, I'm happy for you that you're pleased. If your group accomplished what you wanted, that's cool. I wanted them to accomplish something else, but I guess that just shows that it wasn't my group after all.

Even though I'm disappointed with how it turned out, if I had to make a choice to be in favor of them or against them I'd probably still lean towards being in favor--just wish they had done more.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Caladium

LOL which way are you suggesting? Drive? Wouldn't that be wasting fossil fuels? I could take a taxi or Mega bus but then I'd be supporting a large corporation. I like to walk, but are you seriously suggesting I walk from Virginia to Pittsburgh? Wait, wait I know--I could kayak there!

Look, if you don't want to talk to them, you don't have to--there is no need for snark. I just think it is really strange that you claim to want them to be discussing specific issues with the public, but at the same time you are avoiding actually having a discussion with them as a purportedly interested member of the public. I think if you really reflect on your attitude, it sorta supports their point about media filters--you are actually profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of engaging in an important public discussion with your fellow citizens without some sort of filter in place.

Give it up, we both know the real truth is they didn't accomplish any goal except to gripe a lot.

I sincerely disagree, but I can understand that if that is all you are trying to prove, then that would explain why you aren't willing to actually engage them in a discussion. You'd rather just judge them from "the sidelines".

But again, I really don't think that matters on some level. You may claim they accomplished nothing, but here we are spending time talking about one of their issues.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Caladium

You seriously believe that if someone was to answer my question by listing specific ideas and solutions that had been hammered out by the Pittsburgh OWS, the moderator would delete or alter their comments?

That isn't what we were talking about. We were talking about having actual live discussions with members of the movement about their ideas.

I actually have no idea how Yac would respond, but at some point it would surely be off topic for the Pittsburgh forum. Maybe there is some other forum on City Data where that would work--I don't know.

But again, all this strikes me as bizarre. I know they have a web presence, and do Twitter, Facebook, and so on. If you sincerely want to engage them in a discussion, why would you seek them out here? You should seek them out where you know you can find them.

But let's be honest. You don't really want to talk directly to them, right? You want there to be some arm's length, intermediated way for you to judge them (perhaps with an open mind, but judge them nonetheless) without having to actually come into direct contact with them.

Because seriously, if you want to actually speak to someone participating in the movement about their ideas, it can't be this hard to figure out how to do that (and no, I wouldn't advise starting here).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Caladium

More importantly, I'm happy for you that you're pleased. If your group accomplished what you wanted, that's cool.

Just to repeat, I don't actually have any affiliation with the Occupy movement. I am in fact pleased that the American public is spending more time talking about things like inequality and less about deficit reduction, but that is as an interested citizen, not as a member of their movement.

Even though I'm disappointed with how it turned out, if I had to make a choice to be in favor of them or against them I'd probably still lean towards being in favor--just wish they had done more.

I don't think anyone knows yet what else, if anything, they might accomplish. As always, I think it is important to remember that by historic standards, we are still in the extreme early stages of any such populist movement.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

but at the same time you are avoiding actually having a discussion with them as a purportedly interested member of the public.

Ah, I see. So if I am not physically able to get to the corner of Grant and 6th due to the fact that I don't live in your state, that means I am avoiding having a discussion? Gotcha. What a shame that we don't have an invention like the internet so we could have discussions in a place like this forum. Oh wait, the internet was invented and it is indeed possible to have a discussion on a forum, since we're having one right now.

Got another question for you. If it's true that all you have to do to hear the secret list of ideas and solution is go to the corner of Grant and 6th and ask someone--how is it that nobody who has been there is talking about these ideas and solutions? Does everyone have to sign a form promising that they won't divulge the big secret?

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But again, I really don't think that matters on some level. You may claim they accomplished nothing, but here we are spending time talking about one of their issues.

Which one of the OWS issues are we discussing? As far as I know the question addressed in this thread is "did they actually do any brainstorming and come up with ideas or were they just camping out--and if so, why aren't they sharing these ideas?" Is that really one of their issues?

[archangel689]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Tell that to Fox News and the rest of the Hard Right, that's all they talk about with their endless whining of 15T in Debt yet we're suppose to cut taxes even more for the 1% (i.e. the Job Creators) who are even more richer under Obama than they were under Bush and yet they still aren't creating jobs.

Tax revenue does not rise proportionally as you raise the tax rate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XYoFf84mUV4

http://www.antolin-davies.com/conven...dom/budget.pdf

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Caladium

Ah, I see. So if I am not physically able to get to the corner of Grant and 6th due to the fact that I don't live in your state, that means I am avoiding having a discussion?

We already discussed this. I believe there are Occupy camps in DC, and also an Occupy group in NoVa that is holding events (I don't know if they have a camp). If that doesn't work for you, as I noted I know they are doing Twitter and Facebook, and probably other stuff too.

So you've got a lot of alternatives besides coming to Grant and 6th (although of course Pittsburgh is a lovely place to visit).

What a shame that we don't have an invention like the internet so we could have discussions in a place like this forum.

But they ARE on the Internet. They just aren't trying to engage you in this particular forum. Seriously, why are you insisting they find you here, as opposed to you just going to where you know you can find them (and I mean on the Internet, not necessarily in person)?

how is it that nobody who has been there is talking about these ideas and solutions?

They are, just not here at City-Data Pittsburgh in particular (edit: at least so far as I know--I haven't been asking. unedit). If you are specifically interested in Occupy Pittsburgh, I know they are also on Twitter and Facebook.

Which one of the OWS issues are we discussing?

The role of media filters in public discourse (which, like it or not, we have in fact been discussing).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by archangel689

You cannot balance the budget by raising taxes.

True. We need to control health care costs to accomplish that.

But assuming we did that, and also achieved some modest savings on things like defense, then we could in fact balance the federal budget with relatively modest tax increases.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I believe there are Occupy camps in DC, and also an Occupy group in NoVa that is holding events

Yup, DC has a group. Been there, checked it out a few weeks ago, talked to a few people, but never ran into anyone who could give me any answers. I guess I was mostly holding onto hopes that the Pittsburgh group would be different. Why? Well, a lot of times I find the groups that come to DC like to make a lot of noise, but if you want productive activity you'll find that in the smaller, quieter movements in mid sized cities. You're right that I can try looking it up on a few more sites. I'll try a few, and if I find anything I'll report back.

At any rate, I do want to apologize for pursuing this probably harder than I should have. I'm disappointed that more didn't come out of this, but I had unrealistic expectations of what could be accomplished--and whose fault is that? Mine. When I sat back for a moment and thought about it, I realized it wasn't fair to expect the Pittsburgh group to do more than the DC group, and they probably had no greater purpose than the DC group (which is to draw attention to the fact that people are angry, but that's it; they're not into finding solutions, at least as far as I can tell.).

Even if I'm not thrilled by that purpose, one positive I can say is if that is the purpose they met their goal. So in that way, at least, I suppose I can offer congrats.

[Yac]

Originally Posted by Caladium

Yac, would you like to weigh in on this? If an idea was reached during the Pittsburgh OWS, will you allow it to be posted?

Sure, as long as it's within the tos and not illegal. And if possible, constructive, - "hang them bankers by their corrupt necks" is not going to create a serious discussion.
Yac.