Environmental Charter School at Frick Park (Pittsburgh, Homestead: new home, elementary schools, living in)

[squarian]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Squarian, maybe you know how many Kindergarden spots are "open" to people without kids already there and how many kids appy for those spots?

Well, the kindergarten class isn't the real sticky bit, since obviously each year there's a new group of kinder, so apart from any siblings of older kids, all the places are still open. (Though as the school grows toward its final size, K-8, and families grow also, there will presumably be more siblings starting school and getting first dibs on kindergarten places). Three kindergarten classes, total about 60 places, and maybe 20-30 are accounted for by siblings?

It's the grades above K which are tricky - it's a good school, so no one is leaving voluntarily, which means that only a few places are open at the beginning of each year in each grade. My recollection is by no means sound on this point, but I believe the last lottery saw nearly 500 applicants aiming for perhaps 50 open places total, most of which were in kindergarten.

Of course, ECS is a good, innovative, vibrant school - but there's nothing special about that, really. Anyone who'd like to have their child in a school like ECS but is daunted by the odds ought really to at least consider helping to found a charter school. Schools like ECS prove it's possible to have good public schools; there's no reason why they should be a rarity in PA.

[Sideblinded]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

Even if you are a Regent Square resident, you don't get priority over somebody who lives in East Liberty or Swisshelm Park. It is still based on a lottery system.

I know that. The OP mentioned in their post they were buying a house in Regent Square in the title of this post. I just wanted to give them a heads up so they don't accidentally buy a house in Woodland Hills. It isn't a clear border.

[ctkalino]

We applied last year for this Fall's kindergarten and by a miracle were selected. There were 48 spaces for kindergarten. 30 of them were already filled by siblings of older students, leaving 18 spaces open for the lottery for applicants residing in the PPS district. There were over 150 applicants in that lottery...meaning <12% chance of getting in as someone else posted. After that, they moved onto the non-PPS district lottery. Meaning that the first person picked who resided outside of the district was 130-something on the kindergarten waitlist.
In other words, it really does feel like winning the lottery if you get in.
Also, there ended up being 2 kindergarten classes with 25 kids total (50 total spaces) because they had to correct a lottery error by letting in two additional kids. I doubt they have any plans to expand beyond that - the new Lower School classrooms are all being used for something at this point.
I think 1-2 kids gett off the waitlist each year, but not much more than that. By far almost all people chosen in the lottery end up choosing to go there.
So good luck. You never know! And so far, we love it.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by squarian

Of course, ECS is a good, innovative, vibrant school - but there's nothing special about that, really. Anyone who'd like to have their child in a school like ECS but is daunted by the odds ought really to at least consider helping to found a charter school. Schools like ECS prove it's possible to have good public schools; there's no reason why they should be a rarity in PA.

Charter and magnet schools cater to kids with involved parents who are motivated to navigate their kids through the lottery/audition application process. Kids without that parental support are going to get filtered out. That may be a good thing if you've got kids at those schools, but it isn't a general solution for the issues public school districts are facing.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by squarian

Of course, ECS is a good, innovative, vibrant school - but there's nothing special about that, really. Anyone who'd like to have their child in a school like ECS but is daunted by the odds ought really to at least consider helping to found a charter school. Schools like ECS prove it's possible to have good public schools; there's no reason why they should be a rarity in PA.

Although test scores say very little, adjusting for ECS being a bit whiter than the city magnet schools, the average test scores are slightly lower than all the popular East End magnets (Linden, Liberty, Dilworth, Montessori). City magnet schools are also, at least anecdotally, much easier to get into - it seems well over half of students who apply to the magnet system get in somewhere, judging by my conversations with local parents.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Although test scores say very little, adjusting for ECS being a bit whiter than the city magnet schools, the average test scores are slightly lower than all the popular East End magnets (Linden, Liberty, Dilworth, Montessori). City magnet schools are also, at least anecdotally, much easier to get into - it seems well over half of students who apply to the magnet system get in somewhere, judging by my conversations with local parents.

What does adjusting mean?

It seems you basically saying the test scores of ECS are higher than the Magnets and that the reason in your opinion it that more white students go there?

There is reason that affluent white parents want to and are willing to send their kids to the ECS. From what I have heard ECS is many parents last chance to stay in the city. If they lose the lottery they are headed for the burbs (because private school isn't an option).

The question that needs to be answered is why is the ECS so attractive compared to the magnets?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

What does adjusting mean?

It seems you basically saying the test scores of ECS are higher than the Magnets and that the reason in your opinion it that more white students go there?

There is reason that affluent white parents want to and are willing to send their kids to the ECS. From what I have heard ECS is many parents last chance to stay in the city. If they lose the lottery they are headed for the burbs (because private school isn't an option).

The question that needs to be answered is why is the ECS so attractive compared to the magnets?

You caught me making an assumption I shouldn't have. I knew from a comparison I did last week that white students at ECS didn't do as well on standardized testing as white students at the "big four" magnets. I presumed that the difference was since ECS is whiter (around 2/3rds white rather than half), it came out ahead in aggregate like suburban districts. But even overall their test scores aren't really better than PPS magnets.

Rather than a super-long post, I made a google doc to show what I mean this time. Each column shows the percent of students scoring "advanced" on the PSSA test for that year. What I see is the following.

1. In aggregate, ECS scores a bit better than PPS magnets on math, but the relationship is less clear on reading.
2. Looking at white student scores alone, ECS is clearly not as high-scoring
3. Black students at ECS do terribly for some reason. I'm not sure how ECS could only have 6% of black fifth-graders score advanced while Liberty scores 51% for example. It's sort of shameful. Some of Pittsburgh's other charters (City Charter, NUP) do a great job educating black kids, so I don't know what's going on here.

I presume that ECS is more "popular" than the magnets for a few reasons. One, people make false conclusions it has better results than PPS options. Two, people make the false assumption that being privately-managed and non-union will somehow result in a better education by default.

[robrobrob]

It seems as if Linden is clearly the better school. However, white parents are reluctant to sent their kids there. Or, maybe the preferences given to the former feeder pattern for Linden makes it unlikely for kids from some parts of the predominately white East End to go there. Or the answer could be as simple as not many white families feel a German program is important.

Basically, you are saying that since it is run by a team other than the PPS it is more attractive because parents assume it is better.

I think the reason ECS is so popular in comparison to magnets is that ECS is not as diverse as the magents. Basically, some affluent white parents prefer to send their kids to schools that have more white students.

Also, the Montessori results are shocking because they have a pre-k program.

[BrianTH]

I don't think there is any one reason some parents prefer ECS. I agree the racial balance of the student body may be a factor for some parents (even if they don't consciously think of it that way). But I also know parents who really like the environmental theme, and parents who really distrust PPS, and parents who like the location, and so forth.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

It seems as if Linden is clearly the better school. However, white parents are reluctant to sent their kids there.

I dunno if they are reluctant. Keep in mind Pittsburgh has typically set up a system to racially balance the magnets. But generally speaking it's easier for white parents to get their kids into the magnets, as there is always more demand for free educational alternatives in the black community. Since 2003 Pittsburgh hasn't been able to use outright racial quotas, so the numbers have been veering in places. Allegheny Academy on the Northside, for example, is around 2/3rds black now, and sadly probably reaching the point of no return when it comes to getting white parents interested in enrolling.

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Or, maybe the preferences given to the former feeder pattern for Linden makes it unlikely for kids from some parts of the predominately white East End to go there.

There is no neighborhood component to magnet selection in Pittsburgh, except you get extra "points" for schools in your broad geographic area. Hence anyone in the east gets equal preference. East includes, AFAIK, all neighborhoods between the Allegheny and the Mon save downtown, plus Hays, New Homestead, and Lincoln Place.

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Or the answer could be as simple as not many white families feel a German program is important.

Linden is in the process from switching from a German to Mandarin focus.

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I think the reason ECS is so popular in comparison to magnets is that ECS is not as diverse as the magents. Basically, some affluent white parents prefer to send their kids to schools that have more white students.

I'd hate to think it comes down to that. The presence of black students says nothing about the overall quality of education your child in particular will get.

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Also, the Montessori results are shocking because they have a pre-k program.

Montessori shows a similar pattern to ECS, but less extreme. White students do as well there as any of the other East End magnets, but black students do significantly worse. Generally speaking, Dilworth tends to be the East End school that black students do the best in. I do wonder how much of this is cultural - that something about African-American culture doesn't mesh well with the unstructured learning in Montessori classrooms, but the high levels of structure in traditional Academies (for example, use of uniforms) help to keep black students more focused on learning.

Another interesting thing I didn't cover is white students at Minadeo (which is the actual neighborhood elementary of Point Breeze/Regent Square) actually score better than white kids at ECS. Minadeo scores equally to Colfax - it's just that it draws on some very poor black neighborhoods as well (parts of Homewood and Hazelwood, for example) which brings the aggregate scores down.