Very sad to hear this, I was all for the T extension, but after reading this.... (Paint: casino, calculation)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

The OP's article said that PAT acknowledges that they weren't even meeting the planned schedule. Surely that is already funded. It's a management issue that they could not get the staffing they needed for whatever reason.

Oh sure--I was referring to pman's proposal for extended service.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So where is this new funding supposed to come from?

By the way, I doubt it would take much of a marketing campaign to get people to use expanded service, if and when it ever gets funded.

with all due respect brian, you should have seen this problem coming a mile away. where does the funding come from? why are you asking me? they were able to find funding for free t service to the north side. it would seem that private, city, county (or some combination of the above) is the right place to look. the cost of adding short turns probably isn't insurmountable. as it is, they might as well shut it down so people stop trying to take it. personally I think good service on special event days will make more supporters than bad service.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Oh sure--I was referring to pman's proposal for extended service.

expanded might be more appropriate

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

with all due respect brian, you should have seen this problem coming a mile away.

Who says I didn't? Unfortunately, I am not King of the World (well, maybe that is not so unfortunate).

where does the funding come from? why are you asking me?

Because you are insisting that they provide extended service, which will require funding.

they were able to find funding for free t service to the north side.

Right, through sponsorship deals. It wouldn't hurt to ask if anyone wants to sponsor extended service (the teams are a particularly logical possibility), but there may not be such a sponsor available.

it would seem that private, city, county (or some combination of the above) is the right place to look.

I agree they should look everywhere. Again, though, there is no guarantee they will find funding that way.

the cost of adding short turns probably isn't insurmountable.

Well, they can't do it for free. So you must be saying they probably can get the funding from somewhere. That's conceivable, but I don't have any basis for thinking it is probable.

as it is, they might as well shut it down so peopel stop trying to take it.

Eh, I doubt that makes sense. As others noted above, many transit agencies operate service which is grossly undercapacity during events. And even at max operations, this service will be grossly undercapacity for big events. So I don't think "all or nothing" makes sense, since it will never be close to "all". People will grumble about the waits, like they do everywhere, but they will still use it.

Which is basic economics, incidentally--in cases like this you would expect the market to clear through what is known as queue rationing, which basically means the scarce resource goes to the people most willing to wait. Hypothetically, if everyone stopped using it because there was a significant wait, suddenly there would be no wait, so people would start using it again. On the other hand, the longer the wait, the fewer people who will be willing to wait. So when the wait is just long enough to attract just enough people to use all the available capacity, you reach an equilibrium.

Queue rationing shows up in many places--Soviet-style breadlines, prize giveaways, congested highways, and so forth. Of course it is often a sucky way to do things, but typically the reason it occurs is that there is some side constraint on using variable price rationing instead of queue rationing. In the presence of such a side constraint, you may just have to put up with queue rationing.

Which leads to the final question in this case: could PAT use variable price rationing instead of queue rationing? That would mean upping the fare during big events until the fare was high enough that it discouraged enough people to make the waits short for the remainder of the people willing to pay the high fare. Offhand I don't know if they could do that, but in any event, whether or not they eventually max out capacity, they would likely still have to rely on queue rationing unless they could institute such variable price rationing.

[fleetiebelle]

Is it fair to expect PAT to provide extra service for special events in the first place? It's public transportation, not a private charter. People have to expect that bus/rail service will be slow after games, the same way service is slower during rush hour. Drivers have to expect that there will be more traffic. So it goes.

[Pitt Chick]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

Is it fair to expect PAT to provide extra service for special events in the first place?

I would think so, at least for the marathon. The T was pushed hard as the transportation of choice with all the road and bridge closures.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

because you are insisting that they provide extended service, which will require funding.

actually, I'm insisting it's a good idea, and it is.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Right, through sponsorship deals. It wouldn't hurt to ask if anyone wants to sponsor extended service (the teams are a particularly logical possibility), but there may not be such a sponsor available.
I agree they should look everywhere. Again, though, there is no guarantee they will find funding that way.
Well, they can't do it for free. So you must be saying they probably can get the funding from somewhere. That's conceivable, but I don't have any basis for thinking it is probable.

funny, that's the exact opposite of what you said about free service but that's about what I expect out of you. there are no guarantees but I'm not sure how that's relevant. the whole profitable nonsense isn't really constructive now is it?

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Eh, I doubt that makes sense. As others noted above, many transit agencies operate service which is grossly undercapacity during events. And even at max operations, this service will be grossly undercapacity for big events. So I don't think "all or nothing" makes sense, since it will never be close to "all". People will grumble about the waits, like they do everywhere, but they will still use it.

Idk, actually, the amount of service being provided is pretty minimal. in Philadelphia the trains run pretty often and though you hear occasional grumbles, most people seem pretty happy with it. if people had to wait 45 minutes it would be unusable...instead it runs every five minutes..it would be better if the line went more places (not unlike the T).

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Which is basic economics, incidentally--in cases like this you would expect the market to clear through what is known as queue rationing, which basically means the scarce resource goes to the people most willing to wait.

that's all very nice and verbose but not particularly useful. sure, some people will use it but that's not really saying it's worth running. it's entirely possible that said "rationing" is counterproductive and not worth doing.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

could PAT use variable price rationing instead of queue rationing? That would mean upping the fare during big events until the fare was high enough that it discouraged enough people to make the waits short for the remainder of the people willing to pay the high fare.

in other words, add market pricing. sure, it's worth considering whether as a way to increase service/reduce demand or match a contribution, that's a solution. all I'm saying is that rather than wait for the state, these shold be looked at now.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

Is it fair to expect PAT to provide extra service for special events in the first place? It's public transportation, not a private charter. People have to expect that bus/rail service will be slow after games, the same way service is slower during rush hour. Drivers have to expect that there will be more traffic. So it goes.

Yes because it's always been that way since the beginning of time, only until recently with the Funding Situation has PAT not been able to add extra service.

I don't think people will have such a problem with waiting awhile and letting a few packed trains pass if they know other's are coming fairly shortly. I do it in NYC all the time and that's just on regular day (I know another A train is coming in 3 mins so I'll let this crush loaded one go by)....It's when people have to wait 45 mins and watch helplessly as platforms spilleth over with human bodies...That's when people reach a boiling point.

Also keep in mind these were not just regular native Pittsburghers. A lot were from out of town, so you can imagine the impression of waiting 45 for the Subway left on them. I know what I would think of ones mass transit system if I had to wait that long.

[captainmidnight]

PAT probably had a higher amount of call offs due to sickness (real or fake) than usual. It was a weekend and maybe the operators who called off will be getting laid off anyway or will retire before the contract runs out and thought they don't have anything to lose. With all the past layoffs combined with the call offs, they probably had no choice but to run shorthanded. Maybe operators with a scheduled day off were called to come in and thus received overtime. This why some drivers/operators make so much is because of the overtime having to work extra because of layoffs and call offs.

I was listening to KDKA AM in the 6PM hour two weeks ago on the day of the April PAT Board Meeting where they voted on the service cuts. This was the host of the show: Johnna Pro « CBS Pittsburgh

She had a baseless claim that no one rides on PAT. Several callers chimed in and rightly said she was wrong and that buses and trolleys were packed for the most past. One caller asked her if she ever rode PAT and she said no! How would she know then? Listening to stories? The media in this town is awful.

[captainmidnight]

PAT probably had a higher amount of call offs due to sickness (real or fake) than usual. It was a weekend and maybe the operators who called off will be getting laid off anyway or will retire before the contract runs out and thought they don't have anything to lose. With all the past layoffs combined with the call offs, they probably had no choice but to run shorthanded. Maybe operators with a scheduled day off were called to come in and thus received overtime. This why some drivers/operators make so much is because of the overtime having to work extra because of layoffs and call offs.

I was listening to KDKA AM in the 6PM hour two weeks ago on the day of the April PAT Board Meeting where they voted on the service cuts. This was the host of the show: Johnna Pro « CBS Pittsburgh

She had a baseless claim that no one rides on PAT. Several callers chimed in and rightly said she was wrong and that buses and trolleys were packed for the most past. One caller asked her if she ever rode PAT and she said no! How would she know then? Listening to stories? The media in this town is awful.