Parkway West WORST Congestion outside NY & LA (McKeesport, Oakland: sale, schools)

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Tirade

I agree that this is true about the older generations, but it's different with younger people. Car ownership among young people is steadily dropping, and teens are putting off getting their driver's licenses into their 20s. And personally, I have yet to meet anyone in my age range who wants to live in a suburb. I definitely think the trend of living near your job will increase over the next few decades.

Can you cite statistics on this? Most teenagers are getting their driver's license as quickly as they can. Go to any high school student parking lot and count the cars. Many schools don't even have enough room for all the students who want to drive to school. My local school charges students for a sticker and there is a waiting list to buy one.

The situation you are describing is not the norm in Pgh. I would say it really only applies to a few cities such as Center City Philly, Boston and New York City.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

Can you cite statistics on this?

Here is one interesting article:

Driving has lost its cool for young Americans | Grist

In 2008, just 31 percent of American 16-year-olds had their driver’s licenses, down from 46 percent in 1983, according to a new study in the journal Traffic Injury Prevention. The numbers were down for 18-year-olds too, from 80 percent in 1983 to 65 percent in 2008, and the percentage of twenty- and thirtysomethings with driver’s licenses fell as well. And even those with driver’s licenses are trying to drive less; a new survey by car-sharing company Zipcar found that more than half of drivers under the age of 44 are making efforts to reduce the time they spend packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes.

More here:

http://ur.umich.edu/1112/Dec05_11/2933-fewer-young-but

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

You'd also want to extend the East Busway at least to Monroeville (which would arguably be the best bang-for-the-buck transportation project we could do in the region---note a busway lane has something like ten times the peak capacity of a highway lane). And that project is in fact part of the region's long-range plan.

But you probably can't solve the problem even with upgraded public transit--for that you will likely need congestion pricing, which in turn would help shift people to the available public transit alternatives.



But the airport just isn't that big of a destination for the eastern part of the region as compared to the main employment centers like Downtown and Oakland.

I wasn't referring just to the airport destination. There are a lot of people who are commuting though both tunnels. Look at the business density along the Parkway West.

And speaking of Oakland, is their anything worse than the Bates St. ramps?

Generally this is why congestion pricing would make sense--instead of spending billions on a new highway to serve the relative handful of people using the airport, or any other particular users, with congestion pricing you can ensure an uncongested route for whoever really needs it.

If you were going to do anything to help out the airport corridor itself, it would be to extend the West Busway both directions (into Downtown and farther out toward the airport), which again would add much more peak capacity than a highway.

I think the busway is a great idea.

Note that such highway belt systems in many other cities have become highly congested as well. What happens is that development clusters along the highway, and the fundamental problem is you are using a technology with a relatively low peak capacity, so it is relatively easy for its capacity to be exceeded.

I agree with what you are saying, but I still think Pgh has a major east west highway problem. One accident or flooding of the Parkway East bathtub shuts down the Parkway and virtually makes it impossible to travel this direction.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That, of course, is the real problem. The city versus the suburbs is not really the issue--the issue is autocentric development. And since we cannot physically fit everyone into the City anyway, we need to be thinking about how to bend development patterns in the suburbs in a less autocentric direction.

I think you have a point there. What if bedroom communities developed around Pgh with light rail transportation to downtown and Oakland? I'm thinking this is the only way that towns like McKeesport and New Kensington can survive and prosper. These were once both thriving cities with much of the infrastructure still in place.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

I wasn't referring just to the airport destination. There are a lot of people who are commuting though both tunnels. Look at the business density along the Parkway West.

I think the vast majority of the peak traffic inbound at Squirrel Hill is heading somewhere else besides west of the Fort Pitt tunnel, and vice-versa.

Moreover, I think you can see the seeds of the problem with trying to build you way out of these issues--the Parkway West has indeed attracted development to the point it has become congested, and the same thing would likely happen with any other highway you build in the core area. The fundamental problem is that highways in general are a poor technology for serving this sort of need in dense urbanized areas (not that highways are useless, but they are best suited for intercity travel, not local travel within dense urbanized areas).

One accident or flooding of the Parkway East bathtub shuts down the Parkway and virtually makes it impossible to travel this direction.

That's an issue, but there are so many other daily issues in the area I don't think an occasional issue like that is enough to elevate a very expensive new highway project to the top of our prioritized list.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

I think you have a point there. What if bedroom communities developed around Pgh with light rail transportation to downtown and Oakland? I'm thinking this is the only way that towns like McKeesport and New Kensington can survive and prosper. These were once both thriving cities with much of the infrastructure still in place.

I agree.

I'd also suggest we ultimately need the surburbs to have dense, multi-industry jobs clusters surrounded by their own dense residential areas with transit links. In other words, they need to become satellite towns.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

I agree with you and doubt that most people living in Butler County work in downtown Pittsburgh; however they still use a lot of rural/suburban infrastructure that is subsidized by the state, which gets much of it's money from Allegheny County, which gets most of it's money from Downtown Pittsburgh jobs. (See Allegheny's angling just for a fair share from state transit aid - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette for some stats to back this up).



If they work in the city, yes, they probably should. Not because the city is irresponsible, but because someone who is in the city on a daily basis is very likely costing more than the $52 annual tax that commuters currently pay.

And when yinz guys come out to the Ross Park Mall n'at, should we charge yunz?

[Copanut]

As to 16 year olds not having licenses, if I have it correct, they can't go for the test until their permit is 6 months old. That just might skew the figures.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I agree.

I'd also suggest we ultimately need the surburbs to have dense, multi-industry jobs clusters surrounded by their own dense residential areas with transit links. In other words, they need to become satellite towns.

Doesn't the Pgh area have dense, multi-industry jobs cluster sites with Monroeville and Cranberry? And to a lesser extent with Southpointe, Robinson Twp., and RIDC? The next location will be difficult to choose because of the transportation issues.

Locations such as New Kinsington and McKeesport are unique. There are unlikely to become "dense, multi-industry jobs clusters." Their potential attraction would be as a bedroom community with a quick commute on light rail into downtown and Oakland. Without something like this, they will continue their rapid decline.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Copanut

And when yinz guys come out to the Ross Park Mall n'at, should we charge yunz?

The state and county already do. And if there were ever local sales taxes, I think it is a safe bet they would go to the jurisdiction where the sale occurs, not to the jurisdiction where the buyer resides.