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Old 06-06-2012, 10:08 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,693,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsStanwix? View Post
I think the major distinction here is public union (gov't employees) vs. private union. In a negotiation involving a private union, you have two real sides, the side looking to increase pay and benefits negotiating with the side looking to reduce labor costs. In the public union case, you essentially have one side (politicians) that have major incentive in many cases to side with the union, so you don't have anyone representing the taxpayers at the table. This is not a negotiation, at this point.
This is a very good point. In private industry, there is a very real incentive to assure fair and non-destructive contracts, at least in theory. GM, US Steel, and others are examples where this isn't always true. But in public sector unions, there is no balance, as the side representing management doesn't have a whole lot of incentive to manage costs. Not enough money? Who cares. Just borrow or increase taxes. School districts are the biggest examples this.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:22 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,871,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
But in public sector unions, there is no balance, as the side representing management doesn't have a whole lot of incentive to manage costs. Not enough money? Who cares. Just borrow or increase taxes. School districts are the biggest examples this.
Of course politicians DO care about increasing taxes, since they can (and often do) lose their jobs as a result of tax increases that seem unnecessary to their constituents. Politicians also care about service levels, again because their constituents do, and money used unnecessarily on labor costs means lower service levels.

This is not to say politicians are never acting contrary to the public interest, just as managers often act contrary to the interests of shareholders. But it certainly is not true that as a general matter, politicians are immune to considerations of cost and efficiency.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Lawrenceville, Pittsburgh
2,109 posts, read 2,144,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Of course politicians DO care about increasing taxes, since they can (and often do) lose their jobs as a result of tax increases that seem unnecessary to their constituents. Politicians also care about service levels, again because their constituents do, and money used unnecessarily on labor costs means lower service levels.

This is not to say politicians are never acting contrary to the public interest, just as managers often act contrary to the interests of shareholders. But it certainly is not true that as a general matter, politicians are immune to considerations of cost and efficiency.
I agree with your point comparing politicians to managers, in that they don't always act in the best interest of their constituents. I was attempting to make an overall point that those who are anti-union often overlook: there are two (or more) types of unions, and not all of those unions "steal from the public". I'm not really opining on whether any of these labor groups are good or are not good, though financial incentives for politicians to negotiate with public labor unions may more often be misaligned with the taxpayers than incentives are misaligned for managers negotiating with private unions.

The thing that scares me in this case is it seems as if none of the heavy hitting politicians are really speaking up, as if this deal was signed either unbeknownst to them or at the very least without their support. Can anyone provide any insight as to whether this was a backroom deal between a non-elected official (maybe the "management" of the state stores, who have incentive to keep the stores open) and the union representing state stores open? This reeks of a slick deal that was meant to halt the legislative process.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:38 AM
 
270 posts, read 337,862 times
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Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
I do like the fact that there are electrical unions and plumber unions, as it serves as a way to separate the real tradesman from scam artists.
That's not what a union is for. That is what the BBB and state licensing boards are for. All a union does is allow them to keep non-union members from working.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Garvdog View Post
That's not what a union is for. That is what the BBB and state licensing boards are for. All a union does is allow them to keep non-union members from working.
Eh, how do you think the licensing board works? Do you think they have the government employees that are trade masters to oversee workers through several years of training? That's not how it works. Plus, those entities are not universal. In many states licensing is very limited. Also, don't even mention the BBB. They are a complete joke.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:48 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,693,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Of course politicians DO care about increasing taxes, since they can (and often do) lose their jobs as a result of tax increases that seem unnecessary to their constituents.
Don't make me laugh. Yes, in areas where there is actually some semblance of democracy that might be true. But in western PA, and numerous other urban areas across the country, the local political machine is sooo intrenched that even criminal convictions can't dislodge some of these political hacks. Just look what happened in Bell, CA. The locals politicians were robbing the city blind. It wasn't till the state stepped in did they put a stop to it.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:52 AM
 
270 posts, read 337,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
Eh, how do you think the licensing board works? Do you think they have the government employees that are trade masters to oversee workers through several years of training? That's not how it works. Plus, those entities are not universal. In many states licensing is very limited. Also, don't even mention the BBB. That is a complete joke.

Do you really think membership in a union is some indicator of a contractor's skill or level of competence? Please. If anythin it is the union that will keep them from losing their license when they are proven incompetent.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:00 AM
 
270 posts, read 337,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
Don't make me laugh. Yes, in areas where there is actually some semblance of democracy that might be true. But in western PA, and numerous other urban areas across the country, the local political machine is sooo intrenched that even criminal convictions can't dislodge some of these political hacks. Just look what happened in Bell, CA. The locals politicians were robbing the city blind. It wasn't till the state stepped in did they put a stop to it.

On this point I have to agree with Velvet, and school districts are indeed a good example locally. I can't remember the last time a school board member lost their position because of outrage over millage increases, yet people complain about them constantly. Until there are real consequences there wont be any kind of reform.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:00 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,693,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garvdog View Post
Do you really think membership in a union is some indicator of a contractor's skill or level of competence? Please. If anythin it is the union that will keep them from losing their license when they are proven incompetent.
Actually, it does to a point. Despite what you might think, the trade unions actually do try to weed out incompetence. You have to pass through several levels, each taking years to achieve. Do they guarantee success? No, but neither does a diploma from Harvard. But it gives you something to go one when no other really measure is available. Again though, these types of unions are complete different then workers unions like the AFL-CIO or the UAW.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:07 AM
 
270 posts, read 337,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
But it gives you something to go one when no other really measure is available.

I just mentioned two other measures, which you want to disregard since you don't trust them. I'm surprised that you give union membership more credibility than the BBB or a licensing board
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