Why is the Upper Hill so forgotten? (Pittsburgh, Allentown: middle-class, top neighborhoods)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Simple math: Tax millage Rate multiplied by Property Value = Tax. Rate isn't the equation, it needs to have home value as well to determine what you are going to be paying. Therefore, if the Hill started to rebuild and values increase taxes would go up when they storm through and reassess. In some cases taxes on one property could go up 5 times the old value because you can buy a home in the Hill for a few grand. People would then be wondering, why did I fix my place up, now I have to leave. Sad, but true.

Eh, I dunno.

Personally, my home assessment in Lawrenceville went from $23,000 to just under $70,000. I still feel it's too low, because I want to sell for well over $100,000 when we're done with everything. And we essentially paid no county tax before, because our home value was so close to the homestead exemption.

[gg]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Eh, I dunno.

Personally, my home assessment in Lawrenceville went from $23,000 to just under $70,000. I still feel it's too low, because I want to sell for well over $100,000 when we're done with everything. And we essentially paid no county tax before, because our home value was so close to the homestead exemption.

So your tax assessment value went up close to 3 times. The millage will be adjusted, so you didn't do all that bad. Believe me, some people aren't so lucky. If you fix your home up and it looks pretty, you will get smacked hard at some point. You timed this pretty well and you personally did okay.

[SteelCityRising]

I live in Polish Hill adjacent to the Upper Hill/Sugar Top/Herron Hill/Schenley Heights, which is the neighborhood in question (why it has so many names is beyond my realm of comprehension, but I digress). BrianTH certainly nailed it as to why this area has continued to remain stagnant, at best, while being within walking distance to Oakland, Shadyside, and Polish Hill, all of which are continuing to become very expensive. People just lump this in as part of the broader "Hill District" and automatically equate that to "high crime". People also tend to avoid majority-black neighborhoods here like the plague, whether we like to admit that or not, because such neighborhoods with few exceptions tend to be the volatile and undesirable ones (Homewood, Lincoln-Lemington, Larimer, the Middle Hill District, the rougher parts of the North Side, Beltzhoover, Wilkinsburg, etc.)

Personally I would definitely consider living in this neighborhood. The views from the backyards of the homes along Finland Street in particular are nothing short of spectacular. The neighborhood is reasonably safe. There's a park right at the top of the hill. I'm not afraid of blacks the way most of the whites who have consciously overlooked (and who continue to consciously overlook) this neighborhood are. Growth pressures are continuing to drive up the cost-of-living in the East End so whether some chose to believe it or not the revitalization of Larimer, Garfield, Swissvale, Wilkinsburg, and, yes, at least the Upper and Lower Hill Districts, WILL come over the next few decades. It wasn't all that long ago (maybe 2000ish?) that Polish Hill was a backwater neighborhood, and now in 2012 rentals fly off the market here as soon as they become available.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

True. Although the example of Morningside was also brought up, which is clearly a white neighborhood off the beaten path, which, despite not being "cool" has seen a lot of appreciation with similar housing stock to the Upper Hill.

The Hill in general, and the Upper Hill specifically, has seen significant appreciation in recent years.

I thought we were discussing people not talking about neighborhoods much, and I'd suggest Morningside does in fact experience some of that effect.

I have a feeling this will change if Crawford Square is really extended through the former Civic Arena site. It's going to lose a lot of the "islolated" feeling then.

I agree--successful redevelopment of the Lower Hill could make the Hill in general seem less isolated.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eccotecc

Just a thought, don't the hills have the views? Do home buyers care about having views? If new arrivals to Pittsburgh lived in an area that was relatively flat, a flatlander, then isn't being on a hill with a view a potential selling point?

When I first moved to Pittsburgh (having spent my life to that point as a "flatlander"), looking up from Oakland, I assumed the Hill would be prime real estate because of the views.

[eccotecc]

It's nice to have options with benefits.

[Uptown kid]

Upper Hill doesn't have a bad reputation! It's known to most as the city's middleclass black neighborhood. On this forum it has no reputation or a bad reputation due to ignorance. It's brought up as much as say New Homestead, Overbrook, Corliss or Hays... When I post stuff about the Hill District in terms of crime I mean excluding Upper Hill, Crawford Square/most of Lower Hill & the Oakhill Apartments (excluding Burrows St). Plus Upper Hill & Uptown are often excluded from the term Hill District to begin with.

SuggarTop is currently (key word currently, because 20 to 8 years ago it was in the same state that Upper Lincoln is in now; lower middle class ghetto) stable majority black lower-middle class area. Occasional riff-raff spills over Herron from Centre or Bedford/Webster and there are shootings every now and then, but no more than once a year. This isn't bad for city terms. Back in the day SuggaTop Mob Bloods claimed most of the area, yet their largely gone now. I'll admit that Camp St & the Webster Ave area do have some major urban decay and blight issues though. Overall Upper Hill aka SuggarTop or Schenley Heights is fine...

Other seedy to stable yet safe, 35-70% black middle class populations are also in: Enright-East Liberty, Crawford Square, OakHill, Lower Manchester, Chartiers City, Windgap, Observatory Hill, South Staton Heights, North Oakland, Friendship, Highland Park & Point Breeze North.
-Crescent Hills, Rodi, Blackridge, Lee Drive Park & Broadcrest Drive are the nice, safe, diverse areas of Penn Hills.
-Laketown, Beacon Hills, Upper Penn, Blackridge, Hamnett Place, Wilkinsburg west of the Busway are the nice, safe, diverse areas of Penn Hills.
-Garden City Monroeville is the suburban black middle class Mecca IMO...
The South Hills (many areas combined), North Hills (many areas combined), Moon Township, North Braddock/Braddock Hills/Churchill/Edgewood/Forest Hills, Wilkins Township, North Versailles, Elizabeth-Forward, West Homestead, Squirrel Hill, Point Breeze South, Brighton Heights & parts of the Lower Northside (Allegheny West/Mexican War Streets/Central Northside east of Federal St) have a few too...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

The Hill in general, and the Upper Hill specifically, has seen significant appreciation in recent years.

I thought we were discussing people not talking about neighborhoods much, and I'd suggest Morningside does in fact experience some of that effect.

I guess by overlooked I meant "why is it overlooked as a safe, affordable neighborhood to live in." Not just why is it not discussed. There's plenty of neighborhoods not discussed in Pittsburgh, including essentially the entire West End.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Uptown kid

Upper Hill doesn't have a bad reputation! It's known to most as the city's middleclass black neighborhood. On this forum it has no reputation or a bad reputation due to ignorance. It's brought up as much as say New Homestead, Overbrook, Corliss or Hays... When I post stuff about the Hill District in terms of crime I mean excluding Upper Hill, Crawford Square/most of Lower Hill & the Oakhill Apartments (excluding Burrows St). Plus Upper Hill & Uptown are often excluded from the term Hill District to begin with.

SuggarTop is currently (key word currently, because 20 to 8 years ago it was in the same state that Upper Lincoln is in now; lower middle class ghetto) stable majority black lower-middle class area. Occasional riff-raff spills over Herron from Centre or Bedford/Webster and there are shootings every now and then, but no more than once a year. This isn't bad for city terms. Back in the day SuggaTop Mob Bloods claimed most of the area, yet their largely gone now. I'll admit that Camp St & the Webster Ave area do have some major urban decay and blight issues though. Overall Upper Hill aka SuggarTop or Schenley Heights is fine...

This is pretty much what I would have guessed. I suppose the question is why it hasn't had a surge of interest in the black community as it has become safe? That there is still fair amount of blighted and vacant properties suggests that interest hasn't come anywhere near lapping housing supply yet. Is it just because the number of "Buppies" in Pittsburgh are so small that they can't create the aggregate demand?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I guess by overlooked I meant "why is it overlooked as a safe, affordable neighborhood to live in." Not just why is it not discussed. There's plenty of neighborhoods not discussed in Pittsburgh, including essentially the entire West End.

But is it really being overlooked as a safe, affordable neighborhood? It didn't have all that much population loss from 2000 to 2010, it is experiencing increasing home values, and so on.

The sense in which is is being "overlooked" in my view is that a lot of people don't know such things, or aren't otherwise discussing them, when it comes to the Upper Hill. But it is cruising along anyway.