Buncher plan for Strip District property could stop AVRR commuter rail! (Pittsburgh: how much, transfer to)

[Geeo]

I don't think you can run light rail trains on heavy rail track - different gauge of track. One can't accommodate the other. I really don't see this project happening.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Geeo

I don't think you can run light rail trains on heavy rail track - different gauge of track. One can't accommodate the other. I really don't see this project happening.

On Monday, June 4, 2012, Administrator Joseph Szabo of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in conjunction with the American Public Transportation Association Annual Rail Conference will formally announce approval of DCTA’s request to operate the Stadler GTW concurrent with traditional, compliant equipment. This means that for the first time ever; light-weight/fuel efficient, eco-friendly low-floor vehicles will be permitted to operate in rail corridors concurrently with traditionally compliant vehicles. The waiver, a first of its kind, will expand commuter rail options for transportation authorities across the United States.

Denton County Transportation Authority and Stadler Rail Group Achieve Industry First| DCTA

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

not sure what you're getting at here

What I read them as saying is that if it is confirmed they have a legal right (easement) to 16th Street, they could potentially hold up the Buncher plan. But they don't necessarily want to hold up the Buncher plan, as long as they can work out a deal on an alternative route that wouldn't interfere with the Buncher plan.

Of course if they don't have the easement, they have no leverage. But last I knew, that hadn't been decided.

Edit: The AVR as previously proposed would "light" DMUs of the kind at stake in the Denton County decision. The big implication of the Denton County decision is that if they bought these modified DMUs, they wouldn't have to time-segregate the service. However, I'm not sure that is a big deal in this case, since they were apparently fine with running their freight at night.

[Impala26]

Assuming the Strip District Streetcar idea comes to fruition (bit of a big 'if'), wouldn't it not necessarily matter if the AVRR light rail route only went as far as 16th Street or even further away from town? I know the ideal goal is to get the new commuter train into Steel Plaza, but if they couldn't get it done in the gung-ho "rebuild everything" 1950's and 60's, is there really that much hope for a privately-funded infrastructure project in today's climate?

I mean, I feel like that kind of transfer would not be a big deal as similar ones exist in large cities across the US. I feel like folks in Philly, D.C., and NYC often make SEVERAL train transfers in a single commute. I mean, as a fail-safe, it would not be too bad, right?

[pman]

Except they wouldn't have to run their freight at night and these light rails would be free to run at night.
They obviously are concerned with running downtown via the strip. Steel plaza is a good alternative but not the only one. The advantage to the city iS obviously that the two lines go different places. You're right though a transfer need not be a killer provided the fare systems work together and transfers are coordinated.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Impala26

I know the ideal goal is to get the new commuter train into Steel Plaza, but if they couldn't get it done in the gung-ho "rebuild everything" 1950's and 60's, is there really that much hope for a privately-funded infrastructure project in today's climate?

They could be blowing smoke, but they seem to have very serious investor interest, and if I am not mistaken, they can make use of the new PPP law. I'm sure they are expecting a public contribution, but it may be pretty reasonable for what they intend to do.

And a transfer short of Downtown would really pretty much suck. I understand people do it in other cities, but you are talking about a brand new service, competing with an upgraded 28. To really sell it, and potentially attract redevelopment to the AV, I'd really hope there would be no transfer.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

Except they wouldn't have to run their freight at night and these light rails would be free to run at night.

For possible future expansion purposes, that could be helpful.

But I think the immediate significance is for the possible Greensburg line, which could use the NS/Amtrak tracks.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

For possible future expansion purposes, that could be helpful.

But I think the immediate significance is for the possible Greensburg line, which could use the NS/Amtrak tracks.

there's no need for "possible future expansion," if the demand is there, you could do it now.

there's probably less of a significance for the greensburg line since it runs right into penn station as it is. you do learn strange lessons though. maybe next you'll convince me that gondolas have no place in dealing with grade changes. oh wait...

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

there's no need for "possible future expansion," if the demand is there, you could do it now.

That is a significant caveat. What we know is the AVR group believes that with enough public funding, a relatively light peak-time schedule could be profitable if they are charging people around $15 for a round trip, which is calculated in part to be competitive with the out of pocket costs of driving and parking Downtown for the day.

When you then start considering night service, you obviously can't assume the demand at that price point will remain as robust, and therefore you obviously can't assume there would be enough demand to financially support that part of the schedule.

So when I say "possible future expansion", I mean relative to what we know the AVR is planning to start with. That said, maybe they will now change their initial plans--I expect we shall find out.

there's probably less of a significance for the greensburg line since it runs right into penn station as it is.

The significance for the Greensburg line is they could now use these newly-approved DMUs, rather than the former standard for FRA-compliant passenger rail vehicles operating concurrent with freight trains. As I am sure you are aware, there are many potential advantages to using the newly-approved DMUs independent from their street-running capabilities. In fact, last I knew they had stopped making FRA-compliant DMUs (in part because there was such a limited market for them).

maybe next you'll convince me that gondolas have no place in dealing with grade changes. oh wait...

The actual parallel would be noting that handling severe grade changes is not the ONLY useful aspect of gondola systems, and thus that gondolas could be useful even without a severe grade change along their route (see, e.g., London). Which is a point I have indeed noted before.

[pman]

Of course special event and weekend service doesn't require any specific infrastructure since it uses infrastructure in place for workday needs. I think the necessary has shown there is demand for event service. The ruling allows for both freight and passenger. I'd wager people would be puzzled if a law was passed that banned trailers from sharing the same road as cars.
There are a lot of implications from the ruling. A Latrobe line could diverge from the ns main and use the busway to get downtown. It could even run downtown as the buses do. These are revolutionary capabilities in american rail transit and important given that NS will want capacity anyway.