Why is Point Breeze North still so (comparably) cheap? (Pittsburgh: for sale, apartments)

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

North Point Breeze is a tiny neighborhood and doesn't offer its own business district (it does contain the East End Co-op, however)... but it's very close to the sizable East Liberty retail cluster (Target, Trader Joe's, Bakery Square, Whole Foods, Giant Eagle, two major gyms, tons of dining, etc)... and is rather close to business districts in Shadyside, along Penn heading into Wilkinsburg, Regent Square, the tiny district on Reynolds St, etc.

Adding to North Point Breeze's superior walkability is its gentle topography and attractive tree-lined streets. It's a great biking locale as well.

My definition of walkable is apparently different than yours. Being close to other neighborhoods isn't the same as living in a walkable neighborhood. I lived in South Point Breeze and found it isolated in comparison to Shadyside or Squirrel Hill where I have also lived.

[szug-bot]

Originally Posted by eschaton

My wife keeps boosting Greenfield, which has a similar price range to Point Breeze North, but it's about as unwalkable, plus the housing is generally early 20th century suburban, and ugly as hell.

- you probably havent seent the neighborhood in its entirety. i will not stand here and tell you the housing stock there is second to none, but i wouldnt characterize it as 'ugly as hell'.

- 'unwalkable'? its very walkable unless you mean the hills. you would probably get used to them and then theyd be no issue at all.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

My definition of walkable is apparently different than yours. Being close to other neighborhoods isn't the same as living in a walkable neighborhood. I lived in South Point Breeze and found it isolated in comparison to Shadyside or Squirrel Hill where I have also lived.

I would regard North Point Breeze as being more walkable in terms of accessing retail and services than almost all of Greenfield despite Greenfield having its own diminutive business district. Greenfield is much larger in area and more topographically challenging. Most Greenfield residents have a longer and more difficult walk to access retail and services than most North Point Breeze residents.

Obviously, North and South Point Breeze are more "isolated" than Shadyside and Squirrel Hill... but the Points are adjacent to those neighborhoods and offer easy access to their business districts and amenities.

But we can go back and forth on this endlessly and never convince each other...

[BrianTH]

Generally much more than 1/2 mile and you are pushing what is widely considered "walkable". So you have the Busway station, some parks, the Co-op and other stuff along Penn, maybe the Reynolds Street stuff, and the Frick, but I agree the big commercial districts in East Liberty, Shadyside, and Squirrel Hill are all out of range.

However, "bikeable" and "busable" are perhaps useful concepts as well. And even just having very short drives is handy.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I believe this contains the new maps, and unfortunately Bloomfield/Friendship doesn't address their school issues:

http://www.pps.k12.pa.us/14311051817...v7_Bus_Fin.pdf

I can never understand how Wooslair, Arsenal, and Sunnyside developed into overwhelmingly-black elementary schools given all of them historically drew from overwhelmingly white neighborhoods. I guess it's just most of the working-class white population took their kids out of the public schools, but it's still quite strange.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I would think that Greenfield is more walkable than North Point Breeze since it does have a larger business district when considering both parts. Sure it is on hill but it is very dense.

There's nothing of much use to me in Greenfield's business district, except that our pediatrician is there (and that used to be my vet). It probably works fine for the old-timers who live there however.

And as Evergrey says, I am someone who commutes by bike, and Point Breeze is a pretty good location if you like to bike. I really don't want to live on a hill if I can help it.

Originally Posted by szug-bot

- you probably havent seent the neighborhood in its entirety. i will not stand here and tell you the housing stock there is second to none, but i wouldnt characterize it as 'ugly as hell'.

Most of the neighborhood is built to a suburban style (albeit more 1920s than WW2), and I like classic rowhouses or Victorians. This is the only house on the market in Greenfield I like the look of, despite 24 houses being listed on Trulia.

Originally Posted by szug-bot

- 'unwalkable'? its very walkable unless you mean the hills. you would probably get used to them and then theyd be no issue at all.

Perhaps I should say "nothing worth walking to" Just houses after houses, with both the business district along Greenfield Avenue and the bit along Murray having nothing special. Greeenfield Avenue is doubly weird because one side of the street is residential.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Generally much more than 1/2 mile and you are pushing what is widely considered "walkable". So you have the Busway station, some parks, the Co-op and other stuff along Penn, maybe the Reynolds Street stuff, and the Frick, but I agree the big commercial districts in East Liberty, Shadyside, and Squirrel Hill are all out of range.

However, "bikeable" and "busable" are perhaps useful concepts as well. And even just having very short drives is handy.

Dallas & Thomas... pretty much the middle of North Point Breeze... is a 16 minute walk to Trader Joe's according to Google Maps. Bakery Square is 12 minutes.

Walnut St business district is 1.6 miles or 31 minutes... really an easy and pleasant walk... and you don't have to worry about parking along the tight Shadyside streets. Forbes & Shady is 1.4 miles along a beautiful route. Maybe you don't feel like making those walks every time... especially if you plan on carrying home bulky items... but they are certainly an easy walk with little time investment.

...

Deely & McCaslin is pretty much the center of Greenfield. From there, I can access Greenfield's Giant Eagle in 0.5 miles or 11 minutes. I can access Szmidt's along Greenfield Ave. business district in 8 minutes. However, these areas don't offer a whole lot... so if I want to get to the somewhat frayed "bottom" of Squirrel Hill's business district, Forward and Murray... I have to walk 21 minutes... Forbes and Murray is 34 minutes. Greenfield does have easy car access to Homestead's Waterfront, however.

[Joe Magarac]

Why is North Point Breeze relatively affordable? I can think of three reasons:

1. Crime, both perceived and real. The perception is that NBP is right next to Homewood and is a common target for burglary. John Edgar Wideman's "Homewood Chronicles" feature quite a few robberies on Thomas Street. In reality, the neighborhood is fairly quiet and safe, but the perception that crime is just a couple blocks away is a tough thing to live with. Note that the other neighborhoods whose crime statistics you checked have business districts which tend to see a lot of muggings and car thefts. If NBP has higher crime than some of them, it's likely burglaries and home invasions, which are a lot more unsettling to people.

2. No walkable business district. I am the kind of person who would walk from NBP to Walgreen's or whatever in a heartbeat. You might be, too. But almost nobody else is. And while the co-op is nice, it's a niche market that is not going to attract too many people to a neighborhood.

3. Schools. NBP hasn't always been in the feeder pattern for "good" grade schools followed by Allderdice; I think the grade school changes are fairly recent. And because they are recent, they are subject to change. I don't know that I would want to sink $200K into a property in the hope that the PPS won't change the feeder pattern again in five years.

Also, for the record, Greenfield is not that ugly and can be quite walkable. My wife grew up there in a 1920s house within a few blocks of the Greenfield Giant Eagle. She could walk to the Greenfield stretch of Murray quite easily, to the Squirrel Hill stretch of it with some difficulty, and the house was just as nice as a lot of houses in South Squirrel Hill or Morningside.

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

...big commercial districts in East Liberty, Shadyside, and Squirrel Hill are all out of range.

WOW! Point Breeze is flat and so easy to walk to East Liberty and Shadyside. Of course some consider walking from one store to the next in a strip mall "not walkable. One of my favorite things about the entire Point Breeze area is you can walk to Shadyside, East Liberty and Squirrel Hill. Sure I can see people saying, no way Squirrel Hill, but to not be able to walk to Shadyside and East Liberty, I think you would have to reevaluate yourself, unless you are a handicap person. Sometimes Americans say the most amazing things regarding how far people can walk. Goodness, if you said Point Breeze isn't walkable to a European, they would be laughing for a week. Sure is an odd culture here in Pittsburgh.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

1. Crime, both perceived and real. The perception is that NBP is right next to Homewood and is a common target for burglary. John Edgar Wideman's "Homewood Chronicles" feature quite a few robberies on Thomas Street. In reality, the neighborhood is fairly quiet and safe, but the perception that crime is just a couple blocks away is a tough thing to live with. Note that the other neighborhoods whose crime statistics you checked have business districts which tend to see a lot of muggings and car thefts. If NBP has higher crime than some of them, it's likely burglaries and home invasions, which are a lot more unsettling to people.

I looked on SpotCrime. There are moderate numbers of burglaries and robberies, but not really more shown than south off Penn Avenue. Remember the city part of Regent Square contains none of the commercial district, so it's pretty equivalent in terms of neighborhood character.

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

3. Schools. NBP hasn't always been in the feeder pattern for "good" grade schools followed by Allderdice; I think the grade school changes are fairly recent. And because they are recent, they are subject to change. I don't know that I would want to sink $200K into a property in the hope that the PPS won't change the feeder pattern again in five years.

People always say "schools change" but I'm really suspicious that once anyplace was taken out of a "ghetto" school and put into a good feeder pattern the BOE would change it back. As an example, the new lines were supposed to simplify the old system, making feeder patterns continuous and neighborhoods not be split up between different schools. However, two enclaves (in Lincoln-Lemington-Belmar and East Hills) which should go to Homewood schools, on up through Westinghouse, were retained in Allderdice. I guess anything is possible depending upon board politics, but IMHO that kind of shafting would ruffle a lot of feathers.

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

Also, for the record, Greenfield is not that ugly and can be quite walkable. My wife grew up there in a 1920s house within a few blocks of the Greenfield Giant Eagle. She could walk to the Greenfield stretch of Murray quite easily, to the Squirrel Hill stretch of it with some difficulty, and the house was just as nice as a lot of houses in South Squirrel Hill or Morningside.

I think South Squirrel Hill and Morningside are, on the whole, ugly neighborhoods as well. Albeit not as ugly as somewhere like Stanton Heights. I just don't find the general 1920s housing stock in Pittsburgh attractive in any way.