Analysis of possible school district mergers in Pittsburgh... (Penn Hills, Mount Lebanon: HOA, condo)

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The historical reasons for this I think had to do with the desire to integrate the magnets. A strict merit-based admission would make the schools pretty overwhelmingly white, especially now that they cannot take race into account regarding weighting of the student body. The easy way to reconcile this, however, is to have magnets have a neighborhood component, and make sure the two sides of the school mix socially.

Another way to do it would be to put the magnet school in the middle of the Hill District or Homewood, for example, so fewer whites would apply there. It seems as if the more popular magnets are in nicer neighborhoods.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by scrapp

Personally, I think PPS is big enough and adding more students is only going to increase Bellefield bureaucracy and administrative load (especially if you greatly increase the number of IEP students in the district). It is also going to dilute opportunities for city residents by making the pool of students eligible for city magnet and charter schools larger.

This is very interesting. I've heard the "exclusive club - members only" argument for the privileged suburban districts often enough, but I think this is the first time I've heard anyone make it for PPS. I wonder if that hints at some sort of corner turned for the city district? Not that it's any more justifiable for the city than for USC, Quaker Valley or Fox Chapel, of course.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by scrapp

SciTech is full. The school was designed to take 50 students per grade at the middle level, and 100 students per grade at the high school level. That's 550 total. The SciTech admission lottery is pretty close to random (there is some slight weighting for PSAA scores, but the bar is way low). Based on what they said at the SciTech open house last spring, you've got about 1 in 3 chance of winning the lottery.

So the deal would be something like for every suburban student in a City magnet, the City could send a student to that suburban district.

Such a deal could be to the City's benefit even if SciTech was full, although you would have to work out how the lottery would work (suburban students could be treated the same, or there could be certain number of slots for them, or so on). That is most likely to be true if a large portion of the City students interested in SciTech are interested at least in part just because it is a better school than their feeder options, such that they may find a suburban school to be an equally or more attractive option. If for most of them it is about the specialty, then maybe such a deal would be a bad idea.

[gg]

Are people saying the magnets are not "merit based"? How are children enrolled? Why would a magnet be any better than any other school if it isn't a merit based enrollment? Sorry, I am unfamiliar with this set up and just am interested in how it works.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Another way to do it would be to put the magnet school in the middle of the Hill District or Homewood, for example, so fewer whites would apply there. It seems as if the more popular magnets are in nicer neighborhoods.

I dunno if I'd say that. I can't think of any magnets in absolutely terrible neighborhoods offhand. I suppose very few people enrolled in the partial Spanish Magnet in Northview Heights, but it's closing this year. Allegheny Academy on the Northside has become a lot more black than the East End magnets though, so maybe there is something to your hypothesis.

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Are people saying the magnets are not "merit based"? How are children enrolled? Why would a magnet be any better than any other school if it isn't a merit based enrollment? Sorry, I am unfamiliar with this set up and just am interested in how it works.

Historically, admission was totally based on lottery, with a few caveats, like having a child already in the magnet school. There was, however, a racial weighting, which meant that 50% of the school was supposed to be black, 50% "white and other." In practice this meant that it was a lot easier for white parents to get into the magnet system, as there were always more black parents trying to get into the schools than white kids. Brian O'Neil has a funny story about how he got his daughters into Allegheny elementary because there were 15 slots reserved for white kids, but only 11 applied. Regardless, the supreme court overturned this admission procedure in 2003. Still, they now use low-income qualifiers to similarly balance the schools, and the racial demographics haven't changed much, with most between 45% and 65% black.

In elementary school, you can only be kicked out of the magnet system for excessive truancy. Past this, there are slight merit weights - if you do bad enough on the PSSAs, or have a low enough GPA, or get suspended too many times, you get booted back to your neighborhood school. Otherwise, it's a given once you're in you'll be in the magnet system until graduation.

As to why it posts better results than the regular PPS schools, there are two reasons. One, it is possible to get kicked out, particularly at the higher levels. But more importantly, the magnets tend to attract above-average parents, who enroll their above average kids there. In addition, the culture of the schools themselves is tilted a bit more towards hard work given the starting differences in the student body.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by Garvdog

Mt Lebanon's millage is 27.13- higher than both USC and Dormont. I'm not sure where you are getting that 21.30 number.

Also, if Dormont is already part of PPS, why would their millage change at all? Don't all municipalities under PPS have the same SD millage?

Dormont: 41.72
Mt Lebo: 38.25
USC: 36.008

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Dormont: 41.72
Mt Lebo: 38.25
USC: 36.008

Dormont has very high municipal millage (14) compared to Mount Lebanon (5.43) and Upper Saint Clair (4.6). However, Dormont has only a 0.5% municipal income tax, but both USC and Mt. Lebanon have 0.8%.

Hell, Dormont's is mil rate is higher than Pittsburgh (10.8). Of course, city income tax share is 1% instead of 0.5%, but it might actually be cheaper for Dormont to merge into Pittsburgh if it kept it's school district separate. I'll have to check.

Edit: As I thought. Dormont going to city taxes would cut the average resident's taxes slightly ($3.06). The city would gain $360 per year per household, as Dormont is a bit wealthier than the city average.

This is the only "win-win" on the municipal level. Rankin, Duquense, Mount Oliver, and East Pittsburgh would see taxes fall if in the city, but they wouldn't net the city additional tax revenue. Every other municipality would see at least some rise in taxes to go into the city.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So the deal would be something like for every suburban student in a City magnet, the City could send a student to that suburban district.

Such a deal could be to the City's benefit even if SciTech was full, although you would have to work out how the lottery would work (suburban students could be treated the same, or there could be certain number of slots for them, or so on). That is most likely to be true if a large portion of the City students interested in SciTech are interested at least in part just because it is a better school than their feeder options, such that they may find a suburban school to be an equally or more attractive option. If for most of them it is about the specialty, then maybe such a deal would be a bad idea.

The latter is my concern. The way I see it, 2 of 3 every three science-oriented students interested in SciTech don't get in because there is no room (and these are the students who were interested enough to do the lottery and write the essay).

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Are people saying the magnets are not "merit based"? How are children enrolled? Why would a magnet be any better than any other school if it isn't a merit based enrollment? Sorry, I am unfamiliar with this set up and just am interested in how it works.

It is a weighted lottery. The weights determine the number of "tickets" you get -- the actual setup varies between schools. For example, for SciTech the weights are:
1. submitting a complete application
2. score "proficient" on most recent PSSA Math and Reading tests
3. qualify for free and reduced lunch
4. top 50% of grade in your school in most recent PSSA math test
5. 90% attendance rate in previous year
6. (9th grade only) attended Lincoln or Carmalt K-8 since these schools have a tech focus

you also have to write a short essay for SciTech, but that doesn't factor into the lottery so it doesn't really matter as long as you take the time to actually write it.

[Garvdog]

Originally Posted by squarian

This is very interesting. I've heard the "exclusive club - members only" argument for the privileged suburban districts often enough, but I think this is the first time I've heard anyone make it for PPS. I wonder if that hints at some sort of corner turned for the city district? Not that it's any more justifiable for the city than for USC, Quaker Valley or Fox Chapel, of course.

I don't think it's a valid criticism that PA's system of little "fiefdom" school districts creates an "exclusive club" environment, any more than other place in America. In cities where suburban schools are part of a larger SD, the schools that develop better reputations end up raising real estate values in the areas that route to those schools, thus creating the same "pay to play" situation.