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As per Miami, keep in mind others have lived there too. I actually found the people in Overtown you were so fearful of surviving their wrath to be quite helpful and downright nice.
My experience was quite different than yours. Of course I was carrying a gas can and walking down over the hill from 95, so I was a perfect target being an obvious lost white dude. If it wasn't for a large fence which slowed the situation enough for me to flee, I might not be writing this. This was in the early 90's and it may have changed, but whatever, you have your ax to grind. I was glad to get out of Miami and have no interest in that aggressive place. 2 years was enough.
Other than this part of your post, I see no reason to go on. Too far apart.
I didn't say that the cops knew that he did something wrong. I didn't say that they suspected him of doing something wrong. They simply saw Miles in an area known for crime, at night, dressed in dark clothes in an unlit area and simply stopped to see what he was up to and to make sure he wasn't doing anything wrong. I'm sorry but if I would have seen that, I also would have stopped that person to make sure they weren't up to something. There is nothing out there that police aren't allowed to question someone in that type of environment.
Also, just in case people haven't seen it, here is the investigation of the case from a retired Pennsylvania State Trooper
You also have to take into account that he actually LIVES in the area that many people outside of the city fears and therefore is on constant alert everytime that he leaves the house. Miles was not visiting Homewood he was surviving Homewood. Please expplain what is the difference of you leaving your house at night and going to the store and three black guys jump out a car without identifying themselves and approach you, would you run or stand there and try to talk to them? If you live in an area that you can get robbed or shot at the drop of a dime you run like hell. I believe all of that would have been avoided if they would have identified themselves and even if they did there is no excuse for beating someone that bad, especially if there were no weapons on him.
Just because he was an honor roll student and had a clean background doesn't automatically make him 100% innocent. There are TONS of cases out there where the "suspect" had no background and such and committed crimes. That's the problem with people. They automatically assume that just because people have clean backgrounds, they can do no harm. Well I got news for you, it doesn't happen that way. But if that's what you wanna think, then by all means, feel free to.
So does that justify beating the hell out of him, just because he "might be a criminal?" It is funny because I heard the same logic when someone was discussing Trayvon Martin's case as well My question would be, why does'nt this happen in predominately white neighborhoods? It is not like they are not crime ridden as well.
Actually since reading is fundamental you should try it once in awhile, it is pronounced SIME. I do stand behind what I said since the treatment that you face outside of the city by the police is alot different than what the average black youth faces in certain areas inside of it. This is the reason that you and others can easily defend such horrific behavior by the police. Notice I never called you a racist or even implied that you were but it seems that you are offended by a simple perception coming from a different angle and from someone who has experienced something that you do not believe happens
That actually was an oversight on the name, Sime. I have accidentally typed brain for brian a few times. Sorry about that part.
I think what you are saying is, if you are not black you don't understand? I don't agree and here is why. I have said countless times I am surrounded by extremely professional black people and I can't imagine they deal with police at all in their daily lives. They don't dress like they are in a rap video or wear clothes that would promote a profile image and they are obviously extremely successful and very well read. If you want to walk around looking like a gangsta, don't expect to not be profiled. Everyone profiles in their mind every single second of every day. The profile comes from clothes because that is a person's choice in how they want to portray themselves. I think some feel it is the color of one's skin. Nope. Sure there are racists on every side, but they are very rare and ignorant. Let me give an example of other profiles. I cycle in and around the city. I know if I see a jacked up pickup behind me, I am in more likely to encounter someone aggressive towards me, so I am ready to hop a curb or whatever needed at a split second to flee his path. If I see a Prius, I am still ready, but more relaxed about it. Is profiling okay? Yes. How can people not profile if they encounter certain behavior over and over again from the same looking vehicles or the same people dressed in a certain way? These are choices these people make in how they want the world to see them. The color of skin isn't a choice and isn't part of the educated world's profiling mindset. Maybe it upsets you that people profile by clothes? That can't be helped. It is 90 degrees and sunny and someone is wearing a hoodie and super baggy clothes so they look like they can conceal a machine gun. Are people profiling that person walking down the street because of that chosen outfit? Of course, and they always will.
That actually was an oversight on the name, Sime. I have accidentally typed brain for brian a few times. Sorry about that part.
I think what you are saying is, if you are not black you don't understand? I don't agree and here is why. I have said countless times I am surrounded by extremely professional black people and I can't imagine they deal with police at all in their daily lives. They don't dress like they are in a rap video or wear clothes that would promote a profile image and they are obviously extremely successful and very well read. If you want to walk around looking like a gangsta, don't expect to not be profiled. Everyone profiles in their mind every single second of every day. The profile comes from clothes because that is a person's choice in how they want to portray themselves. I think some feel it is the color of one's skin. Nope. Sure there are racists on every side, but they are very rare and ignorant. Let me give an example of other profiles. I cycle in and around the city. I know if I see a jacked up pickup behind me, I am in more likely to encounter someone aggressive towards me, so I am ready to hop a curb or whatever needed at a split second to flee his path. If I see a Prius, I am still ready, but more relaxed about it. Is profiling okay? Yes. How can people not profile if they encounter certain behavior over and over again from the same looking vehicles or the same people dressed in a certain way? These are choices these people make in how they want the world to see them. The color of skin isn't a choice and isn't part of the educated world's profiling mindset. Maybe it upsets you that people profile by clothes? That can't be helped. It is 90 degrees and sunny and someone is wearing a hoodie and super baggy clothes so they look like they can conceal a machine gun. Are people profiling that person walking down the street because of that chosen outfit? Of course, and they always will.
Jordan Miles does not resemble or dress like a "gangsta", he could not afford it. You have no clue as to what a "gangsta" looks like. Your confusing a slouchy low life bum with a "gangsta" which is quite funny. A gangsta would wear gucci loafers, true religion jeans and a Yves St. Laurant T. I am not sure what you mean by that but Jordan Miles is the typical preppy east end black kid. Ralph Lauren polos with Chino's and a pair of sperry's is the typical outfit. You must not watch rap videos because most of the rappers wear form fitting high end everything. You may be referring to the 1990's West Coast style of dress. Even if he did dress like a "gangsta", that does not justify getting beat beyond recognition. You say that you have black friends??? If you have more than three, chances are one of them has had a hostile run in with police. Maybe they dont feel comfortable telling you that due to your "police can do no wrong" view. ALL black people know of racial profiling and police brutality...ALL black people from coast to coast. We have hundreds of years of experience.
During the incident itself, what motive could the police officers had for roughing someone up for no reason? I don't see any for that either. Ratpacking an individual poses injury problems to those administering the beating too, they have a way of getting in each other's way. Cops are just guys out doing a job, and usually are just interested in getting the job done and home to their families. Sure, they might have been out just looking for trouble, but its hard to believe that without any actual evidence, particularly with 3 of them involved and the possibility that one could turn on the other two if that was the case.
You are ignoring the elephant in the room which is what very people on this forum willing to admit, racism plain and simple. It seems that it so easy to sympathize with the police and ignore what they actually did which was wrong on so many levels. Why is it so hard to believe that there are some racist cops on the police force? The police officers were wrong plain and simple and they always cover for one another if they can get away with it.
Of course, after the event came down, both sides had good reason to do what they could to make their own behavior look pristine. The police officers were potentially liable to pay a substantial sum, lose their jobs, pensions and benefits.
Mr. Miles stood to lose face after his countless interviews proclaiming his innocence, as well as the potential to actually reap a substantial judgement or settlement.
Which is more important to whom, losing face despite the fact that he already recieved an out of court settlement with the city or losing your job, pension, benefits and possible jail time time?
My own guess is that this case will soon disappear. Miles may well accept a smaller settlement than he would have got before the trial started, the city's insurance will pick up the tab figuring that its cheaper than going through another trial. But that of course is just a guess.
Unfortunately I will have to agree with you on this one. The fact remains is that these two cops are still on the force without any disciplinarian actions is disturbing enough but for some on the jury that feel that because you have a badge it give you carte blanche to beat up on innocent kids because they live in a messed up neighborhood
My experience was quite different than yours. Of course I was carrying a gas can and walking down over the hill from 95, so I was a perfect target being an obvious lost white dude. If it wasn't for a large fence which slowed the situation enough for me to flee, I might not be writing this. This was in the early 90's and it may have changed, but whatever, you have your ax to grind. I was glad to get out of Miami and have no interest in that aggressive place. 2 years was enough.
Other than this part of your post, I see no reason to go on. Too far apart.
Yes, we are very far apart. But that is of your own making. You are on this forum criticizing a kid who was beaten by officers who have taken a solemn oath to protect and serve for not having "street smarts" because he somehow brought the beating upon himself? I was in Miami in the 90s and the aughts and no, things haven't changed.
While you are criticizing Jordan Miles for not having "street smarts" and walking down a street in HIS neighborhood to HIS grandmother's house while concurrently touting your knowledge and experience of inner-city Miami, you somehow also don't know that the two chief criminal acts committed in Miami's Overtown are drug sales (often to people who don't live in Overtown) and arson committed largely by absentee landlords so they do not have to bring their slums up to code.
You have already openly admitted your disdain for actually reading my posts so I don't expect you to read this task force memo of the city of Miami Police Department's Overtown Problem Solving Team. However if you were to read it you would see the dire issues Miami PD has with arson and drug overdose deaths. So here you come, strolling into Overtown, a "lost" looking white guy (by your own admission) holding a gas can. And you have the nerve to criticize Jordan Miles' street smarts!
So yes, like you, I see no further need to continue this discussion. You're right, we are way too far apart.
That actually was an oversight on the name, Sime. I have accidentally typed brain for brian a few times. Sorry about that part.
I think what you are saying is, if you are not black you don't understand? I don't agree and here is why. I have said countless times I am surrounded by extremely professional black people and I can't imagine they deal with police at all in their daily lives. They don't dress like they are in a rap video or wear clothes that would promote a profile image and they are obviously extremely successful and very well read. If you want to walk around looking like a gangsta, don't expect to not be profiled. Everyone profiles in their mind every single second of every day. The profile comes from clothes because that is a person's choice in how they want to portray themselves. I think some feel it is the color of one's skin. Nope. Sure there are racists on every side, but they are very rare and ignorant. Let me give an example of other profiles. I cycle in and around the city. I know if I see a jacked up pickup behind me, I am in more likely to encounter someone aggressive towards me, so I am ready to hop a curb or whatever needed at a split second to flee his path. If I see a Prius, I am still ready, but more relaxed about it. Is profiling okay? Yes. How can people not profile if they encounter certain behavior over and over again from the same looking vehicles or the same people dressed in a certain way? These are choices these people make in how they want the world to see them. The color of skin isn't a choice and isn't part of the educated world's profiling mindset. Maybe it upsets you that people profile by clothes? That can't be helped. It is 90 degrees and sunny and someone is wearing a hoodie and super baggy clothes so they look like they can conceal a machine gun. Are people profiling that person walking down the street because of that chosen outfit? Of course, and they always will.
I see that we can agree to disagree, have you ever heard of the term DWB (driving while black)? The blacks that you know that claim that they never have experienced racism are lucky, unfortunately the majority of us have and it has nothing to do what we wear. My son wears dreadlocks would that be considered to be "gangsta"? How about if he was wearing a suit? Some people use the excuse of a person's clothing as an excuse to discriminate when in all actuality it is more about who is wearing them. In the past 6 months there have been two mass shootings by young white males one was virtually non-descript but have anyones behavior changed in the way that they treat nondescript white males?......Nope! So why should blacks or any other minority be treated any differently? There are instances where common sense plays a role but as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10
I'd very much like to sit on the sidelines and just read other's observations on this one but this is making a very far leap and constructing a classic "false dilemma" fallacy. I think everyone on this board who has mentioned knowing police officers has agreed that the majority of officers are good while a minority abuse power. But to say that communities should accept the few instances of egregious abuse at the expense of not having a police force altogether is ridiculous.
The Pittsburgh metro area has had a few high-profile police abuse cases over the years (the one that stands out is Johnny Gammage). But it seems there is an assumption that every metro area of a similar size would have the same abuses just because the police are there. I could be wrong but I think it is wholly possible to effectively run a police operation in a high crime area without a kid ever being chased down and beaten. That is something this group of officers chose to do on their own volition and will never be considered an effective law enforcement tactic.
In a concealed weapons permit class I took in Florida, law enforcement taught (and was taught) to always use pepper spray even if you have a gun and are licensed to use it because you can "always come back from" an error in judgement in using pepper spray. Errors in using guns or clubs to the head (which is considered usage of lethal force or intent to kill) are not so easily remedied. The example of using law enforcement strategies in Miami are laughable because for a long time they were considered the poster children of police corruption and usage of excessive force. Miami PD was the LAPD before the LAPD was the LAPD if that makes any sense!
Quick note: I am incorrect even in this post. I did a quick "Google Search" to see if there were any American metropolitan areas roughly around the same size of Pittsburgh but did not have any instances of police assaults and all of them seemed to have paid out in civil suits concerning police brutality or at least had very credible accusations of police brutality (mainly video). I would be interested (and encouraged) if anyone could find an instance of a large metro area where the police force in the core city has not had any instances of police brutality or wrongful death.
You are right on with what you are saying, however Pittsburgh is becoming notorious for blacks getting either beat down or killed through police actions and not being prosecuted. This is not the norm in major metropolitian cities. Heck, even in New York the police are convicted once and a awhile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitts10yrs
"My experience" is that I have trained others to restrain children and have literally in my almost twenty years working in schools, hospitals, and communities have restrained hundreds of children as part of my job. No I am not a policeman, as their training is different. But, I am not commenting or speculating outside my experience. I followed the trail, and sifted thru as much evidence that was presented.
Yes, it does take considerable effort to restrain and subdue another, and of course, it depends on the person, as some are better fighters. Children can be some of the most difficult to restrain because they are more supple, flexiable, and better conditioned and will fight longer. They at times can actually dislocate their limbs in a fight, break their own bones, flailing around.
Your problem is that you are looking at a photo and reacting emotionally and are searching for evidence to support you own distorted thinking.
Are you really serious? First of all why does someone need to be restrained by three men while walking home in? Please explain to me (and my son is a military cop and I have training in restraining mental/violent patients) does pulling out someone's hair come into play? Can you make any of us understand how punching someone in the face helps in any form, especially when you realize that he is not armed? Actually this sounds and looks alot like Johnny Gammage all over again and with the same results of a not guilty verdict
Last edited by Yac; 08-16-2012 at 03:51 AM..
Reason: 3 posts in a row merged
Are you really serious? First of all why does someone need to be restrained by three men while walking home in? Please explain to me (and my son is a military cop and I have training in restraining mental/violent patients) does pulling out someone's hair come into play? Can you make any of us understand how punching someone in the face helps in any form, especially when you realize that he is not armed? Actually this sounds and looks alot like Johnny Gammage all over again and with the same results of a not guilty verdict
Exactly. Whether a police officer or criminal, blows to the head are considered an intent to kill. In what institution is someone being restrainted getting beaten in the head in an attempt to submit him or her proper policy? Unfortunately, by protocol, if a suspect was that dangerous that he need to be beaten like Jordan Miles was officers would have to have shot him or at least tazed him. Fortunately that did not happen but receiving any type of blow that ultimately punctures your cheek is beyond egregious. I certainly don't subscribe to the "hey, at least we didn't kill him!" defense.
I also concur with your Johnny Gammage point. It not just about the beating, it is moreso about the very fishy legal process in the aftermath - I think this says more about the actual citizens serving on the jury than the police officers themselves. There are crooked cops everywhere but, gee, in some places they are actually held accountable! But as Pittsburgh native Dennis Miller once said, "You can't get justice in any courtroom with a ceiling fan!"
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My question would be, why does'nt this happen in predominately white neighborhoods? It is not like they are not crime ridden as well.
