Racism in the Pittsburgh Suburbs (Gettysburg: how much, middle school, discount)

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Lobick

to flying the Confederate battle flag in modern America, I've yet to see demonstrated.

The key word in that statement is MODERN. You're pulling up history to prove the hidden agenda of the few people who fly the confederate flag in SWPA. If history is all you have to prove your point, let's get the facts straight. But I think those who fly the rebel flag do so for many reasons, some already stated by others in this thread.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hopes

The North exploited slaves big time. Their cause was exploited for political votes, just as many social issues are exploited by political parties today. And the slaves who fought in the Union army did so to gain citizenship. Talk about the ultimate exploitation! 40,000 black men died trying to be citizens when the right should have been given to them.

I'm honestly not sure what you are talking about. You are right about around 40,000 black men dying as soldiers in the Union Army, but they weren't slaves.

Edit: Link:

http://www.archives.gov/education/le...cks-civil-war/

You're pulling up history to prove the hidden meaning.

There is really nothing "hidden" about the symbolic purposes to which the Confederate flag has been put, including within living memory. However, there are people who would in fact like to hide all that history, at least when they are in general public view.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by Hopes

The key word in that statement is MODERN. You're pulling up history to prove the hidden agenda of the few people who fly the confederate flag in SWPA. If history is all you have to prove your point, let's get the facts straight. But I think those who fly the rebel flag do so for many reasons, some already stated by others in this thread.

This is really disjointed so I'm not 100% sure I follow.

I think the point is that if you're flying a flag, you're not hiding your agenda at all. I'm referencing history because the Confederate flag has long and powerful history which cannot be separated from the symbol. In my view, no one is entitled to the benefit of the doubt if you're flying the flag despite willfully being ignorant of it's history, both civil war and civil rights.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hopes

But I think those who fly the rebel flag do so for many reasons, some already stated by others in this thread.

Again, some people might just be ignorant of the recent history of the Confederate flag, and there may be the occasional true exception like in UKyank's anecdote. But otherwise, their attempted rationalizations are about as credible as someone who proudly displays a Nazi flag claiming it is just a generic symbol of Germany.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

To be more precise, between 1777 and 1863 the United States flag was a symbol of an unsteady union between some states where slavery was lawful and others where it was not. By the way, the Dred Scott decision in 1857 did not reflect the then-status quo about the enforcement of slave status in free states and territories, it upended it, and as such was part of the process that finally led to the Civil War.

Anyway, I don't think it can be argued in good faith that this means the U.S. flags from before 1863 are pro-slavery symbols in the same way as the Confederate flag is, and again you seem to be entirely ignoring the more recent, living memory, history of the Confederate flag.

I actually fully agree that the CSA and thus the flag (though to be accurate the flag in question was not their national one) was founded on the basis of protecting its rights, first and foremost of which was the right to keep people in bondage (to deniers of this just read any of the southern states article of secession).

I just disagree that if you see a CSA flag today that it's presence automatically = that the person associated with it is a racist.

[LexusNexus]

Originally Posted by Lobick

Might I suggest that this observation is ludicrous. "hardly racist" and "a leap"? Really? That the Confederate Flag is a racist and divisive symbol would seem to me to be beyond debate.

I might also point out to other posters that such a shocking lack of historical perspective and understanding should severely impact the faith they place in your opinion of race relations in the South Hills.

The confederate flag is the ultimate symbol of ignorance and racist views, and really should be banned. It's a repulsive symbol. Excellent point too about the relevance of opinions about this subject by people without the historical perspective.

Interesting thread about racism in Pittsburgh suburbs.

[ex-burgher]

I can't believe I'm on the Pittsburgh thread and not Charlotte!

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Lobick

If the South perceived no existential threat to the institution of slavery from the North then they wouldn't have fought the war.

Not true. The North was industrial. It relied on cotton as a raw material for the factories. The South wasn't allowed the freedom of being permitted to sell their raw materials to the highest bidders. The slaves were used by both sides for emotional appeals. And many people did think the war was about slavery. Just like today, many people think our wars are about freedom in countries rich in oil. The civil war was an economic war too, and slavery was today's spreading of democracy and freedom. Even as we live right now, most people don't even understand the real reason behind our wars in the Middle East so it's not surprising that you are misguded about the history of the Civil War. And I'm not saying it wasn't good that slavery was abolished. I'm saying the players on both sides didn't have good intentions and exploited the social issue of slavery to sway public opinion, just like politicians do today on economic issues.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

I just disagree that if you see a CSA flag today that it's presence automatically = that the person associated with it is a racist.

As I noted above, I agree it is possible some people proudly displaying the flag are ignorant of what they are associating themselves with, and again I think it would be doing those people a service to inform them. And there may also be very rare exceptions where continuing to proudly display the flag with full knowledge of its history would still not be racist, such as in your anecdote.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Lobick

This is really disjointed so I'm not 100% sure I follow.

Brian understood what I was saying.

Originally Posted by Lobick

think the point is that if you're flying a flag, you're not hiding your agenda at all. I'm referencing history because the Confederate flag has long and powerful history which cannot be separated from the symbol. In my view, no one is entitled to the benefit of the doubt if you're flying the flag despite willfully being ignorant of it's history, both civil war and civil rights.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Again, some people might just be ignorant of the recent history of the Confederate flag, and there may be the occasional true exception like in UKyank's anecdote. But otherwise, their attempted rationalizations are about as credible as someone who proudly displays a Nazi flag claiming it is just a generic symbol of Germany.

I personally think the Confederate flag is offensive, but I don't believe everyone who flies one is a racist. You both have more faith in the intelligence and knowledge of the general population than I do. Most Americans don't know squat about anything. I think it's hillarious when comedians go on the streets to ask basic history and geography questions. I truly think there are more idiots flying Confederate flags in SWPA than racists. Regardless of their reasons, they are the extreme minority because Confederate flags are extremely rare in this region.