Wilkinsburg ready for a glass of wine? (Pittsburgh, Penn Hills: real estate market, Home Depot)

[squarian]

Originally Posted by stburr91

This is likely going to be another one of those "us vs them" issues in Wilkinsburg.

More like "us vs. us", alas.

[gg]

I think it should stay dry. It will turn into a racist thing if they try and give liquor licenses to only some places. Just let it be and forget about it. I can hear it now, oh so and so in Regent Square got a liquor license because... it is "Regent Square", but we go denied because we are in downtown Wilkinsburg and it is more black. It will be horrible. Keep it dry.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

And plenty of places are doing just fine being wet--a lot more, in fact.

What else you got?

What more do I need? Apparently some areas like being dry, it's their choice.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by stburr91

I think the fact that of all the problems Wilkinsburg has, nuisance bars isn't one of them, is proof that the status quo is indeed working as it's intended.

High vacancy rates, crumbling historic structures, elevated crime rates, very little lawful activity at night, and so on is "working as it's intended"?

All that plus "but at least there is no nuisance bar" is not a worthy goal for the commercial district.

One thing is for sure, the people of Regent Square have nothing to lose with this gamble, as there is no chance a nuisance bar will end up in their neighborhood. The odds aren't nearly as good for the low income neighborhoods (that frankly have enough problems already).

One thing I think you probably could do with zoning is limit the R-license establishments to the commercial district, or indeed even just part of the commercial district. That could put all the residential neighborhoods in the same position in terms of not having to worry about neighborhood bars.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

If anything I know from personal experiences delivering ethnic food in my secondary position that BrianTH's neighbors are mostly college-educated, urbane, and dare I say "crunchy" types who would likely prefer to patronize a revitalized Wood Street shopping district replete with independent merchants and unique eateries instead of the sea of asphalt enshrouded by generic retailers that is Edgewood Town Center.

I believe this is correct, and I'm quite sure a lot of people in the Regent Square/Hamnett Place/Park Place parts of Wilkinsburg would love to patronize a revitalized downtown Wilkinsburg, and would be early participants in such a market if given the right opportunities. In part this is just because the mere fact of deciding to live in Wilkinsburg requires a bit of self selection--of course aside from the public schools issue, it doesn't require much in the way of real sacrifice, but it does require ignoring a lot of common attitudes towards Wilkinsburg. For that matter, that is also why people here have also been early participants in shopping and dining in East Liberty--if you live in Wilkinsburg, you aren't the sort of person who will rule out East Liberty just because of its checkered past and reputation issues.

That said, I think at least some of the people here who are counseling against allowing R licenses at this time believe all this too. What we are really debating then is how to get there from here, and whether allowing R licenses at this time is a good step toward that end, and I do think reasonable people can disagree on that subject (but of course I have my opinion and I am willing to advocate it here).

On the other hand, there are some people out there (and here) whose attitude is basically that Wilkinsburg can never recover and that's that, and any attempt to improve it is doomed to be useless at best or more likely just make things worse. That sort of blindly dismissive attitude, as I noted previously, is ignorant, bigoted, and useless. But again, I know that there are many people with sincere reservations about allowing R licenses who do not in fact have that sort of attitude in general.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by stburr91

I can speak for myself when I say that I'm not dismissing Brian's opinions on this matter. I also have no doubt that the people of Regent Square would rather patronize a revitalized Wood St. than Edgewood Town Centre.

I responded to SCR before I read this post, so for what it is worth, this was clear to me all along.

But as I said in my earlier post, the people of Regent Square have nothing to lose, and everything to gain by taking this gamble. This is likely going to be another one of those "us vs them" issues in Wilkinsburg.

I understand that danger, but I really hope we can avoid that by working out reasonable accommodations to limit this "gamble" to the commercial district, using tools like zoning. Of course there will still be opposition, and much of it will be made up of people who have opposed other attempts to change the status quo in the past. But I really hope that will be the main dividing line (the usual proponents for change versus the usual defenders of the status quo), and not neighborhood boundaries (or at least not per se--there are correlations between the change/status-quo division and neighborhoods that are not hard and fast, but which do complicate Wilkinsburg politics).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by PennHillsNative80

As nice as it would be to sit down at a restaurant in Wilkinsburg and order a glass of wine, I really don't see how this is would work efficiently and by the book. If liquor licenses would be allowed, there would be all sorts of "exceptions" that would be made to the rule and over time, nuisance bars/establishements would sprout up and the area would see a major increase of crime. This would counteract all the good that the PHLF and other agencies have done for the community. I think the only reason why Wilkinsburg wasn't totally destroyed by gangs and crime back in the 80's and 90's was because it was a dry town. Look at Homewood now......all that is left are churches and bars. I would hate to see this happen to Wilkinsburg

But again, where Wilkinsburg's commercial district is right now is not acceptable.

I understand Homewood's dramatic decline represents a scary scenario, but what about East Liberty's recent resurgence? I'd argue that East Liberty is actually the better example because it is happening right now, and Homewood's decline really happened many decades ago. And in fact I'd suggest Wilkinsburg's current condition is very, very similar to East Liberty's immediately before its resurgence.

With that in mind, of course there are many R licenses in East Liberty. And as it turns out, many of the establishments that have helped push along the resurgence of East Liberty have restaurants with R licenses. That's not the whole story, but it is a big part of it. And there is a LOT of research into crime in urban commercial areas which confirms the best antidote to unlawful activity is to maximize the amount of lawful activity.

So are we going to let the fears of things that happened decades ago in Homewood keep Wilkinsburg from following East Liberty's path of today? Or is there some other path to improvement that Wilkinsburg can follow? I'm willing to listen to alternatives, but I am not really seeing that yet in this discussion--so far the case against R licenses is being justified by fear of things getting worse, but where is the alternative path to things actually getting better?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Copanut

What more do I need? Apparently some areas like being dry, it's their choice.

I'm fine if your position has evolved to it being up to those of us who live here to decide what we think is best for our community.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

I find it interesting that so many of you are willing to dismiss BrianTH's sentiments as being invalid simply because he lives in the "nice" part of Wilkinsburg. The Wilkinsburg portion of Regent Square isn't militantly anti-Wilkinsburg. Granted BrianTH is probably the only Ivy-Leaguer in the borough, but that in no way invalidates his opinions. If anything I know from personal experiences delivering ethnic food in my secondary position that BrianTH's neighbors are mostly college-educated, urbane, and dare I say "crunchy" types who would likely prefer to patronize a revitalized Wood Street shopping district replete with independent merchants and unique eateries instead of the sea of asphalt enshrouded by generic retailers that is Edgewood Town Center.

As I branch out on my quest to purchase my first home by August 2013 Wilkinsburg has definitely crept up on my radar. The opportunity to order a glass of wine to complement a nice pasta dish at a restaurant on Wood Street on a Friday night just blocks from a home I'd be lovingly restoring definitely sounds appealing.

So, in short, if they fix it up they will shop there.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

So, in short, if they fix it up they will shop there.

I'm quite confident that is correct.

Holding aside the R license issue, I think what could really jump-start the process is something like the Eastside project, directly east of the Busway on either side of Penn Avenue, potentially including the two fast food parcels, PNC Bank, maybe the CVS, and (in my ideal world) a cool re-use of the train station.