Pgh Jobs- Too may Highly Qualified,not enough jobs (Pittsburgh: loan, schools)

[ML North]

In my observation, an MBA can provide a worthwhile monetary return when (A) it's earned from a top school and (B) when you want to work a lot. If you want to go to CMU and then work for McKinsey, the MBA will generally make you competitive for higher positions than someone with a BS and experience. On the other hand, if you go to Duquesne and take a job at BNY Mellon, the increase in pay will likely not makeup for the cost of the degree.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm pretty suspicious about the need for an MBA - they basically didn't exist in their modern form until the 1970s, and I don't think what they teach couldn't get picked up by those who work their way into management in on-the-job training. They basically came about so people could put spangles on their resume and look more competitive when applying for a job. The problem is MBAs have proliferated so much (and so many of them are total crap), that the degree by itself means essentially nothing now.

I'd certainly not consider someone who has an MBA to be a "professional" as it's a pretty generic degree which covers a wide range of jobs. Professionals are professors, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, scientists, etc. - people who need to take advanced graduate degrees, have strict licensing systems, and one certain skill employers need. Professional is not a synonym for white collar.

DH felt that way 30 years ago. Now he says anyone in engineering who intends to go into management should get an MBA so they can "talk the language".

[trackstar13]

This argument about an MBA is rather silly because the job market has always been cyclical and currently healthcare is the "hot" field in the Pittsburgh area. At some point there will be too many pharmacists, chiropractors, physical therapists, physician's assistants, osteopathic doctors, cardiac specialists, etc. in the Pittsburgh area and the demand for the next "hot" field will take over. In today's economy making yourself the most marketable and having a degree that is general and specialized at the same time can help you succeed. For instance, all MBAs are not the same and some programs allow you to specialize in areas like healthcare management, hospitality management, risk management, etc. These specializations can sometimes make all the difference, especially in an area like Pittsburgh that has a highly specialized economy.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by Katiana

DH felt that way 30 years ago. Now he says anyone in engineering who intends to go into management should get an MBA so they can "talk the language".

A PMP also seems to be the magic acronym they're looking for on resumes these days (at least for an engineer who wants to go into management).

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

That's fine with me. But as an accounting major who isn't planning to immediately get the 150 credits for the CPA beached of costs I'm worried I may not be able to find a lot of jobs who would hire me and let me take a couple classes a semester to gradually get where I need to.

The "Big Four" will hire you straight out of college as long as you plan to get your CPA, which they will assist you in getting. I'm pretty sure you see a nice salary boost, too, once you secure your CPA. PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) and Deloitte both have major presences in Downtown Pittsburgh. I have a friend who works for PwC in Northern NJ and may be able to pull some strings if you're interested.

Then you have someone like me. I graduated with a B.S. in Accounting and have done enough extra coursework where a Master's Degree is not far from my grasp. Believe it or not I don't like actual "accounting" work and am instead now looking into retail management or real estate as career opportunities while I save to start my own business. I majored in Accounting to learn the "inner workings" of financial statements and how companies tick, more or less, because financial management in general has always fascinated me. I also viewed an Accounting degree to be more marketable than a Business Administration degree.

The sad thing is that I'm now making the most money I've made in my life (adjusted for cost-of-living), and I'm working at a job where no degree (or even high school diploma) is required. No shirt and tie required. No logical aptitude required. I may just decide to be "underemployed by choice" to make more money and pay down debt before forging back into the field if the economy ever improves. My partner has two degrees and is also underemployed by choice. Combined we make a comfortable yet modest living.

[WILWRadio]

^^^ For what it's worth. Back in 1985 I was working as a courier in Hartford and VP with Paine Webber and I had a chance to talk for a few minutes one day while I was at his office making a pickup. Essentially he told me that you don't need a college degree to make it in this country. He is right. People like Ross Perot and Bill Gates are good examples of people that don't have a college degree but were able to parlay an idea or several into a vehicle that generated a lot of wealth and success.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by ML North

In my observation, an MBA can provide a worthwhile monetary return when (A) it's earned from a top school and (B) when you want to work a lot. If you want to go to CMU and then work for McKinsey, the MBA will generally make you competitive for higher positions than someone with a BS and experience. On the other hand, if you go to Duquesne and take a job at BNY Mellon, the increase in pay will likely not makeup for the cost of the degree.

Just a side note. My wife is a nurse that went to a teaching hospital, meaning the first day she was there they were treated like servants. Her total tuition back in the 70's equaled the ONE class she took from CMU to get her MBA.

But, as Greg Marmalard once said, That will look good on your permanent record card.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Katiana

DH felt that way 30 years ago. Now he says anyone in engineering who intends to go into management should get an MBA so they can "talk the language".

I can understand the appeal of getting an MBA once you are already established at work - particularly if your work is willing to help pay for it. But I'm not sure they do much for people in their early 20s just starting out, unless you pick the program you go into very carefully. The social signalling of where your degree is from is far more important in general than what the degree actually is.

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

^^^ For what it's worth. Back in 1985 I was working as a courier in Hartford and VP with Paine Webber and I had a chance to talk for a few minutes one day while I was at his office making a pickup. Essentially he told me that you don't need a college degree to make it in this country. He is right. People like Ross Perot and Bill Gates are good examples of people that don't have a college degree but were able to parlay an idea or several into a vehicle that generated a lot of wealth and success.

Bill Gate's father was already wealthy, and Ross Perot is old enough I don't think the comparison really means anything.

A major problem with the U.S. over time has been degree/licensing creep. Here's a few examples.

1. In the early 1800s, you could become a doctor, lawyer, or engineer without going to college. The Ivies were feeling like they would develop into irrelevant finishing schools for the wealthy due to this, so they developed the modern division of undergraduate and graduate education.
2. Journalism used to be a blue-collar job that you apprenticed for. You started out as a copy editor, and if your editor like the cut of your jib, you'd slowly get to write articles and work your way up in a paper. It wasn't until the 1960s that Journalism took off as a major - Bob Woodward and Carl Brownstien, famous for breaking open Watergate, were among the first generation of college-educated journalists.
3. As I said MBAs have proliferated. In 1971, only 26,490 were given. In 2010, 182,139 were. In contrast, Master's level degrees in core academics (Humanities, Social Sciences, Natural Sciences) only increased by around 28% (from 86,000 to 110,000), which pretty much tracks with inflation. Take a look at this chart for more details.

The worst part is, for the most part, people don't need these degrees. Studies have shown that general intelligence (IQ) matters far more for job performance than prior education or work experience, and 1-2 years of on-the-job training are all people need for the vast majority of professions.

Basically we pay money to get these degrees to look better than the competition. The problem is, the competition also gets these degrees, which over time requires a new degree to be added to up the ante. Hence why many professions which formerly required no college degree now require it, and in many cases are beginning to move towards only accepting people with a graduate degree.

Something needs to be done in the longer run to correct this. I think if we had a national aptitude test for work, which would be the primary means employers would select for applicants, it would help a lot. At the very least, we'd all spend less money on semi-useless certifications.

[WILWRadio]

A few members of my family don't possess college degrees and they are millionaires. You can still get ahead without a degree in this country if you can develop a good idea into a successful business.

[Clint.]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I can understand the appeal of getting an MBA once you are already established at work - particularly if your work is willing to help pay for it. But I'm not sure they do much for people in their early 20s just starting out, unless you pick the program you go into very carefully. The social signalling of where your degree is from is far more important in general than what the degree actually is.

Bill Gate's father was already wealthy, and Ross Perot is old enough I don't think the comparison really means anything.

A major problem with the U.S. over time has been degree/licensing creep. Here's a few examples.

1. In the early 1800s, you could become a doctor, lawyer, or engineer without going to college. The Ivies were feeling like they would develop into irrelevant finishing schools for the wealthy due to this, so they developed the modern division of undergraduate and graduate education.
2. Journalism used to be a blue-collar job that you apprenticed for. You started out as a copy editor, and if your editor like the cut of your jib, you'd slowly get to write articles and work your way up in a paper. It wasn't until the 1960s that Journalism took off as a major - Bob Woodward and Carl Brownstien, famous for breaking open Watergate, were among the first generation of college-educated journalists.
3. As I said MBAs have proliferated. In 1971, only 26,490 were given. In 2010, 182,139 were. In contrast, Master's level degrees in core academics (Humanities, Social Sciences, Natural Sciences) only increased by around 28% (from 86,000 to 110,000), which pretty much tracks with inflation. Take a look at this chart for more details.

The worst part is, for the most part, people don't need these degrees. Studies have shown that general intelligence (IQ) matters far more for job performance than prior education or work experience, and 1-2 years of on-the-job training are all people need for the vast majority of professions.

Basically we pay money to get these degrees to look better than the competition. The problem is, the competition also gets these degrees, which over time requires a new degree to be added to up the ante. Hence why many professions which formerly required no college degree now require it, and in many cases are beginning to move towards only accepting people with a graduate degree.

Something needs to be done in the longer run to correct this. I think if we had a national aptitude test for work, which would be the primary means employers would select for applicants, it would help a lot. At the very least, we'd all spend less money on semi-useless certifications.

Your posts are so insightful. Always nice to read.