Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Aqua
I've visited Pittsburgh once & was blown away by it's old world charm & it's magnificent geograpic layout.
As a result, I sort of keep my eye open for news of what's going on in the metro so I wonder if you would elaborate on your commute problems a bit. Is the length of time you mentioned that it taskes you to travel those 7 miles a function of having to cross rivers, deal with poorly linked traffic lights, or roads that are not up to handling their traffic loads or other factors?
My quick answer would be no. Some areas in the east end are definetely becoming out of reach of low to middle class people, but in no way is it comparable to an "expensive" city. Even Shadyside/SQ hill would be considered "middle priced" in San Francisco, NYC, or Boston. Maybe the popularity will rise the COL but there is such a gap between Pittsburgh and ^ those places it will take many decades to get to that level.
Prices in Shadyside, etc. will maybe get you a 2bdr/1ba fixer upper in a marginal neighborhood in SF where the low end single family home runs about $500k. Comparable homes in SF are well over $1 million. While home prices in Pittsburgh are rising, I doubt if Pittsburgh will ever be as expensive a city as NY, SF, or Boston. SF has always been higher priced than other parts of the country. Weather, scenic beauty, top tier companies, universities, teaching hospitals and lack of land to build more housing all equal higher prices forever. I think Pittsburgh will continue to grow economically, but I don't think it will ever be a NY, SF, or Boston. On the other hand, I think the days of decline and dirt cheap housing are long gone.
Lower income people will be forced to move farther away or into less desirable neighborhoods. It's sad, but that's the reality of an improving economy. There are people and organizations who work to soften the blow, but capitalism is not too kind to those on the lower end of the socio-economic scale.
I also think that salaries for professionals will rise as companies need to attract good candidates for jobs. On the lower end, companies that don't need to be here for geographic reasons will move to cheaper locales. I'd imagine that lower end pay will climb somewhat, but not like it will for professionals (although lots of white collar work is now outsourced or contract vs. full-time with benefits).
Once employers can no longer pay low wages to Pittsburgh workers due to a higher cost of living the growth rate will slow down and corporations will pick a new metro to "outsource" to.
Lots of truth to Aqua Teen Carl's post.
At the same time, I think Pittsburgh will attract more corporate headquarters, and once that happens those jobs are likely to remain in the metro area. Which can be a good thing and a not so good thing. As SCR pointed out, one downside to new corporate campuses is they're likely to be in the surrounding metro area.
Good news for towns like Cranberry, however. And although it may be annoying to see the suburbs thriving, another way of looking at it is if the entire metro area benefits that means Pittsburgh benefits too.
By the way, a small correction to SCR's post. SCR said that traffic is so bad in northern VA that people are moving away because of it. Maybe some people are, but unfortunately not enough to slow the growth rate. I had hoped the government cutbacks would mean our crazy growth would take a breather--but no. The current projection is we'll have 33% growth between 2013 and 2020. We're building roads like crazy--do you really want that in Pittsburgh? Because building parkways is annoying enough when all you have to do is rip up an old cow pasture out in the burbs. Imagine what it would be like it you had to widen lots and lots of roads in an already built up city.
I'm not able to have much of an opinion about transplants myself, being one, but there's a lot of negativity about them among some Portland and Austin natives (and I will say that we partially moved due to what Portland had rapidly turned into). Elsewhere online, people talking about moving there will often be greeted by comments that amount to "go home" or "we're full." Cost of living rises but salaries don't rise to match (not for the bulk of the population that matter anyway), local culture changes, etc.
Aqua
I've visited Pittsburgh once & was blown away by it's old world charm & it's magnificent geograpic layout.
As a result, I sort of keep my eye open for news of what's going on in the metro so I wonder if you would elaborate on your commute problems a bit. Is the length of time you mentioned that it taskes you to travel those 7 miles a function of having to cross rivers, deal with poorly linked traffic lights, or roads that are not up to handling their traffic loads or other factors?
It mostly comes down to roads not being able to handle the high volume of traffic. I live in a hilltop neighborhood in the south and once you come down from the "hill" you intersect with main roadways. You meet a stand still there since the small residential roadways were not meant to handle the traffic they get (this is the first bottleneck). If you need to merge onto a highway in any direction you meet bottleneck 2. If you have to go through a tunnel you meet bottleneck 3.
If you are lucky enough to have a job in the city you might be able to take the light transit rail. However, in my case I have to drive to it in the opposite direction since it is not walkable and I encounter a bottleneck along the way. This actually takes more time than just driving. If you take my bus route you wait in the same traffic and make many stops along the way. This also takes longer than driving in my case.
So the tl;dr version: bottlenecks, bottlenecks everywhere
It mostly comes down to roads not being able to handle the high volume of traffic. I live in a hilltop neighborhood in the south and once you come down from the "hill" you intersect with main roadways. You meet a stand still there since the small residential roadways were not meant to handle the traffic they get (this is the first bottleneck). If you need to merge onto a highway in any direction you meet bottleneck 2. If you have to go through a tunnel you meet bottleneck 3.
If you are lucky enough to have a job in the city you might be able to take the light transit rail. However, in my case I have to drive to it in the opposite direction since it is not walkable and I encounter a bottleneck along the way. This actually takes more time than just driving. If you take my bus route you wait in the same traffic and make many stops along the way. This also takes longer than driving in my case.
So the tl;dr version: bottlenecks, bottlenecks everywhere
Pittsburgh and PA going to have to invest heavily in all around Transportation to handle the increases in population. Too bad PA is ruled mostly by Rural Takers instead of Urban Makers.
Remember the Parkway West is the most congested stretch of road outside of NYC and LA.
That's northing new. Plumbers and electricians have always had great wages and low school debt. What's new is housing costs are rising.
The amount of school debt has been drastically increasing, and the benefits of a degree have been decreasing. This isn't unique to Pittsburgh, but it is a big factor for 20-somethings all over the country. Remember that Pittsburgh is one of the most highly educated cities in the country as far as 20 and 30 year olds go. Let's also not forget that Pitt and PSU are the two most expensive public universities in the nation. And it's not like our local private schools are bargain-priced either.
Now it is the case that people with student debt are less likely to have home or car loans than their peers without student debt (Source: High student debt is dragging down the U.S. economy). It is a huge burden and it is more of a burden than housing costs for many people. We're talking bills of $500 a month for many people, even up to a $1,000 for one person I know. These are bills that can't be discharged in bankruptcy and that will follow you to any city or housing market in the country. It's not Pittsburgh's problem, but it's major issue to many Pittsburghers.
The amount of school debt has been drastically increasing, and the benefits of a degree have been decreasing. This isn't unique to Pittsburgh, but it is a big factor for 20-somethings all over the country. Remember that Pittsburgh is one of the most highly educated cities in the country as far as 20 and 30 year olds go. Let's also not forget that Pitt and PSU are the two most expensive public universities in the nation. And it's not like our local private schools are bargain-priced either.
Now it is the case that people with student debt are less likely to have home or car loans than their peers without student debt (Source: High student debt is dragging down the U.S. economy). It is a huge burden and it is more of a burden than housing costs for many people. We're talking bills of $500 a month for many people, even up to a $1,000 for one person I know. These are bills that can't be discharged in bankruptcy and that will follow you to any city or housing market in the country. It's not Pittsburgh's problem, but it's major issue to many Pittsburghers.
Do you think that as a new generation reaches voting age that they could possibly be in favor of free university education like they have in Europe? This would mean higher taxes and a more selective process to get into university. Just wondering if the crazy debt now required to get a degree might change the paradigm?
Prices in Shadyside, etc. will maybe get you a 2bdr/1ba fixer upper in a marginal neighborhood in SF where the low end single family home runs about $500k. Comparable homes in SF are well over $1 million. While home prices in Pittsburgh are rising, I doubt if Pittsburgh will ever be as expensive a city as NY, SF, or Boston. SF has always been higher priced than other parts of the country. Weather, scenic beauty, top tier companies, universities, teaching hospitals and lack of land to build more housing all equal higher prices forever. I think Pittsburgh will continue to grow economically, but I don't think it will ever be a NY, SF, or Boston. On the other hand, I think the days of decline and dirt cheap housing are long gone.
Lower income people will be forced to move farther away or into less desirable neighborhoods. It's sad, but that's the reality of an improving economy. There are people and organizations who work to soften the blow, but capitalism is not too kind to those on the lower end of the socio-economic scale.
I also think that salaries for professionals will rise as companies need to attract good candidates for jobs. On the lower end, companies that don't need to be here for geographic reasons will move to cheaper locales. I'd imagine that lower end pay will climb somewhat, but not like it will for professionals (although lots of white collar work is now outsourced or contract vs. full-time with benefits).
Hopes and others are right about the property values. My rather modest home is up 61% over what I purchased it for. Now there have been a lot of upgrades and work over the past five years, but that's still a nice bit of equity sitting there should it ever be needed. With that said, the house is still insanely affordable compared to larger cities, but much less so than our true peers of Cleveland, Charlotte, St. Louis, etc...
What does continue to lag here are wages. While trades work is on par with other cities, professional wages seem to be kind of low here compared to other cities, especially in the northeast. Something is going to have to (hopefully) change with that as rents continue to go up and taxes remain fairly high.
Do you think that as a new generation reaches voting age that they could possibly be in favor of free university education like they have in Europe? This would mean higher taxes and a more selective process to get into university. Just wondering if the crazy debt now required to get a degree might change the paradigm?
Not in conservative america. I bet they'd vote to end public high school after 10th grade before making college free for all. Maybe in another 15-20 years.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
