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I don't disagree that it's possible to have a car-less area & have a willing population to live there, just that you first need a large & well integrated transportation network (including both in the city & links outside of it) before such a proposition can be viable & Pittsburgh is very far from anything approaching such a model thus at the moment it makes complete sense for a developer to want to offer good parking options in order to lure tenants who most assuredly have a car or 2.
I wasn't commenting on this development (I think it's fine for the time being, and I don't think it will be impossible to turn the parking area into units later if they so desire), but the comment about the "parking crisis" in South Side and Lawrenceville. Issues involving limited street parking in mixed-use, walkable neighborhoods never bring a formerly promising area to a standstill.
Look at Shadyside for crissakes. Yes, Walnut Street does have a garage nearby, and also has some surface lots in that area. It's still one of the hardest areas in the city to find a parking space - and it's one of the most desirable. Even the 19th century Victorian houses with no driveways or garages tend to sell for more than houses virtually anywhere else in the city. I know people have mentioned on the forum that per square foot, single-family houses in Shadyside are more expensive than Squirrel Hill North. That should tell you something about how little parking matters.
anyway, parking aside (these guys atleast aren't building 2 spaces per unit) this is a great project since it's a dead space right now and the building itself is an eyesore.
This is the important bit. I was surprised to see that 5 years ago it was the SAME outfit planning to make it condos. They could have funded it even then probably if they had just switched to rental apartments.
Admittedly, those people for whom having good parking is important will find places where they can have that (and either pay out the nose if it's in a central city location, or move to suburban-like environment). But once a city has enough demand there are plenty of 0-1 car middle-class households who will pick those sort of environments.
This developer seems to plan providing that for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
you mean like in the strip? it seems that you can't fathom other people living a life different from yours. pittsburgh offers plenty of low density car centric places to live, that's not the strip near downtown is going to be.
Apparently it is going to be that way because this developer plans to provide enough parking.
It's not that I can't fathom people living a different lifestyle. I can't fathom everyone having to live ONE type of lifestyle. This developer is choosing to provide more parking. I can't understand why you have a problem with their decision. I've lived the carless lifestyle and the one car lifestyle. It does hinder employment options. It doesn't matter if you live in the city or the suburbs. The bus doesn't go many places. Most of the regional jobs are not in the city. I think it's great a developer was thoughtful enough to provide ample parking.
I've heard eschaton complain about parking becoming a problem in Lawrenceville. I've read a Southside resident say they have to plan their lives around getting back home early enough and staying home for the rest of the night to have/keep a parking space. I've read the post of the man who lives in Highland Park ranting about the taxi service because it took him four hours to get home from a gallery event in Lawrenceville.
Carless people are the minority in Pittsburgh. Their solution to their public transportation problems is that less people should own cars. What's right about that? I have no problem whatsoever that people chose to live a carless lifestyle. I'm not trying to change the way they live. I'm not deciding what they need and what they don't need, but you seem to think that people with cars don't need convenient parking. That's mighty considerate of you to decide the way others should live.
I wasn't commenting on this development (I think it's fine for the time being, and I don't think it will be impossible to turn the parking area into units later if they so desire), but the comment about the "parking crisis" in South Side and Lawrenceville. Issues involving limited street parking in mixed-use, walkable neighborhoods never bring a formerly promising area to a standstill.
Look at Shadyside for crissakes. Yes, Walnut Street does have a garage nearby, and also has some surface lots in that area. It's still one of the hardest areas in the city to find a parking space - and it's one of the most desirable. Even the 19th century Victorian houses with no driveways or garages tend to sell for more than houses virtually anywhere else in the city. I know people have mentioned on the forum that per square foot, single-family houses in Shadyside are more expensive than Squirrel Hill North. That should tell you something about how little parking matters.
I meant from a business perspective. The retail stores would make even more money if there was better parking. I've had to pass up businesses I wanted to shop at because I couldn't find parking. I've got money to spend. Make it easy for me and I'll spend it. Lots of people feel that way. Most of the single family homes in Shadyside and Squirrel Hill have off street parking. Most affluent East End households own multiple cars and drive almost everywhere. I know quite a few who have multiple cars and limos with drivers. Well, their drivers are really security guards with special forces backgrounds. My point is that they have somewhere to park all of these cars. They don't leave them on the street.
It's not that I can't fathom people living a different lifestyle. I can't fathom everyone having to live ONE type of lifestyle. This developer is choosing to provide more parking. I can't understand why you have a problem with their decision. I've lived the carless lifestyle and the one car lifestyle. It does hinder employment options. It doesn't matter if you live in the city or the suburbs. The bus doesn't go many places. Most of the regional jobs are not in the city. I think it's great a developer was thoughtful enough to provide ample parking.
I don't think that pman is disputing this because they're giving people a parking option. He's disputing this because it's immediately next to downtown, and he thinks that more "urban" development should be pushed in and around downtown. I broadly agree with him, but as I said, if they turn these two floors into parking, they could probably easily turn them into apartments later if they find out the tenants really don't have enough cars to rent out all the spaces. If they were proposing a new parking garage (or even worse, more surface lots), I might feel differently though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
I've heard eschaton complain about parking becoming a problem in Lawrenceville. I've read a Southside resident say they have to plan their lives around getting back home early enough and staying home for the rest of the night to have/keep a parking space. I've read the post of the man who lives in Highland Park ranting about the taxi service because it took him four hours to get home from a gallery event in Lawrenceville.
I've mentioned parking has gotten more difficult here, but I don't complain about it much. That's I_Like_Spam's thing. For us, it's gone from always having a space on our block, to sometimes having to park the next block over - particularly if we go anywhere in the evening. I have yet to not be able to park on my street though.
When we still had two cars, my Kia was so infrequently used we paid more in fines for not using it on street cleaning days than we did putting gas into it for like three years in a row. It was a joy giving it away to a cousin in need.
I think the theory is that as fewer and fewer people own cars, PAT will have to step up and provide a level of transportation somewhere in the ballpark of where Boston or DC is, and density will increase, and employers will locate near transit. I think there is also some sentiment by some of the millennials that people don't want to be part of a car-centric culture. I can understand that because I was saying the same thing as a member of Generation X .... twenty years ago... before I took a string of jobs that were nowhere near downtown. I'll start believing it when I start seeing a critical mass (ha) of people over-35 with that same conviction.
I meant from a business perspective. The retail stores would make even more money if there was better parking. I've had to pass up businesses I wanted to shop at because I couldn't find parking. I've got money to spend. Make it easy for me and I'll spend it. Lots of people feel that way.
Of course you do, most people do. I've not gone to places before because it's a hassle to park. Hell, my family, despite living in Lawrenceville, seldom goes to the Strip District, because the parking system there sucks if you're a city resident who wants to stop in one place for a half hour and get some essentials (as opposed to a suburbanite there for the whole day). Personally, I'll stop and get things when I'm biking through, but that's about it.
Still, I think you're missing the power of density. Walnut Street works well because so many people live within walking distance, or within a short bus ride. It doesn't matter that they miss out on some people who live further away. Hell, it can be argued (and history agrees) that if they added too much parking, it would ruin the commercial district, either through making it an unpleasant place to walk, or through demolishing so much nearby housing that few people want to cross the sea of parking to get there.
To show an extreme example of density, many of my friends after college moved to New York. Many of them lived in Williamsburg. When I went to visit, they would often scoff when I suggested doing something in Manhattan ("that's a 45-minute subway ride!). They didn't even like to leave their neighborhood much, except to go to work. It didn't matter, because there were so many things to do right there. By its nature, the denser a city gets, the less the hassle of inter-neighborhood travel matters, because you don't need to leave your hood too much to do anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Most of the single family homes in Shadyside and Squirrel Hill have off street parking. Most affluent East End households own multiple cars and drive almost everywhere. I know quite a few who have multiple cars and limos with drivers. Well, their drivers are really security guards with special forces backgrounds. My point is that they have somewhere to park all of these cars. They don't leave them on the street.
I think the theory is that as fewer and fewer people own cars, PAT will have to step up and provide a level of transportation somewhere in the ballpark of where Boston or DC is, and density will increase, and employers will locate near transit. I think there is also some sentiment by some of the millennials that people don't want to be part of a car-centric culture. I can understand that because I was saying the same thing as a member of Generation X .... twenty years ago... before I took a string of jobs that were nowhere near downtown. I'll start believing it when I start seeing a critical mass (ha) of people over-35 with that same conviction.
lots of families may always prefer the car dominated lifestyle that hopes describes but the number of places that offer it are in abundance...what is changing is the proportion of people that want to live in places that are not car domimated. to be fair gen x did start the trend but the sprawl engine has stalled. eschaton is right to point out that parking problems only occur in desirable neighborhoods. old timers will tell you how terrible lawrenceville is/was but its changed. more people ride bikes, take buses, and want to live near stuff. not everyone but more. crime is down on most cities, theyre cleaner, and city authorities have largely stopped destroying their own cities. its no coincidence that lawrenceville is doing well and not east deustchtown that was massacred by highway planners. anyway, sure only a quarter of the regions jobs are downtown or near it but far less than a quarter of the regions population lives there amd that ratio is changing fairly rapidly.
I meant from a business perspective. The retail stores would make even more money if there was better parking. I've had to pass up businesses I wanted to shop at because I couldn't find parking. I've got money to spend. Make it easy for me and I'll spend it. Lots of people feel that way. Most of the single family homes in Shadyside and Squirrel Hill have off street parking. Most affluent East End households own multiple cars and drive almost everywhere. I know quite a few who have multiple cars and limos with drivers. Well, their drivers are really security guards with special forces backgrounds. My point is that they have somewhere to park all of these cars. They don't leave them on the street.
this isnt squirrell hill. if you can afford a limo you can live downtown and have a car if you wish.
again i nevet said everyone shoild be carless.
there may even be strucural reasons. (bottom levels may have been built for vehicles). could be bank requirement or zoning code. its not because everyone has multiple cars. id guess a fair number of people will be young and working downtown and probably have friends nearby and if their friends live in moon, theyll be coming to the city.
all this talk abiut the strip is making me hungry.
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