Very interesting article in the post gazette on Sunday, regarding minorities getting left behind in Pittsburgh (Wilkinsburg: private schools, assess)

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by sparrowmint

It's almost funny to watch, Uptown Kid, as their eyes glaze over, and they don't read your entire post, let alone understand it. Typical though, the tenets of social justice are often meaningless to those who think they have it made, so they're blind (or complicit in) to the corruptions throughout society and its institutions. One thing you'll learn is that it's best not to waste much time on privilege deniers. They either eventually get it on their own, or they don't, and they'll just cherry pick and misinterpret everything you say. Case in point. They want things to stay exactly how they are.

I love the "I know black people" game though. I can play too. I know quite a few successful, highly educated black people. Despite doing very well for themselves in varying careers (finance, law, medicine, government), they're still social justice activists who could tell people plenty about institutionalized racism, sexism, classism, and white/male/heterosexual/wealth privileges. They don't disassociate themselves from other black people and don't consider wide swaths of people beneath them. Success and being aware of the extensive problems in society are not mutually exclusive, not all successful people are self-absorbed or ignorant enough to actually think they did it all themselves.

Now hold on there. There is nothing wrong with Uptown Kid hearing both sides of this opinion from members of his own community. You're making a lot of negative assumptions about Zip. Just because he choses not to belong to traditional black clubs or be a deacon at a black church doesn't mean that he has disassociated himself from other black people. You know nothing about him and what he does for his community. Clearly the community is divided, and that's not helping our society as a whole. The community needs to work this out among themselves.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by sparrowmint

It's almost funny to watch, Uptown Kid, as their eyes glaze over, and they don't read your entire post, let alone understand it. Typical though, the tenets of social justice are often meaningless to those who think they have it made, so they're blind (or complicit in) to the corruptions throughout society and its institutions. One thing you'll learn is that it's best not to waste much time on privilege deniers. They either eventually get it on their own, or they don't, and they'll just cherry pick and misinterpret everything you say. Case in point. They want things to stay exactly how they are.

I love the "I know black people" game though. I can play too. I know quite a few successful, highly educated black people. Despite doing very well for themselves in varying careers (finance, law, medicine, government), they're still social justice activists who could tell people plenty about institutionalized racism, sexism, classism, and white/male/heterosexual/wealth privileges. They don't disassociate themselves from other black people and don't consider wide swaths of people beneath them. Success and being aware of the extensive problems in society are not mutually exclusive, not all successful people are self-absorbed or ignorant enough to actually think they did it all themselves.

What cartoon character are you arguing against? This post is just like... "All liberals hate Jesus and love gay sex with Muslims". You're arguing against straw-men you invented in your head because you're definitely not describing me. Just this weekend I've explained racism in Pittsburgh, defended affirmative action, ...twice..., and defended a confused CMU student against a racist attack. You're just mad that I didn't agree with wpipkins nonsense.

I disagree with everything Clarence Thomas has ever said, but the man has climbed Mt Everest with both hands tied behind his back! If you can't respect that you're a hater... plain and simple. This 1960's black empowerment philosophy was designed to foster unity within the black community and create black self esteem. This was at a time when black folks couldn't use this restroom, eat at that restaurant, join the union, go to college, or live in that town. Those days are long gone. Uptown Kid and his generation need to fight different battles and your antiquated outdated philosophies will kill them before they even get started. You want more crabs stuck in the same barrel as you. I want hedge fund managers, bank CEOs, and software entrepreneurs.

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by zip95

Every person of ANY gender race religion and sexual orientation is there because they have spent decades being smarter, quicker, better, and more driven than everyone else. You have no idea the battles they've had to fight.

Really? So not only is there no such thing as a "sellout," there is also no such thing as nepotism, discrimination, or inherited wealth?

[zip95]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

Really? So not only is there no such thing as a "sellout," there is also no such thing as nepotism, discrimination, or inherited wealth?

Of course there is and thats probably the whole point... win at capitalism and you too can short circuit the system for your children. It has nothing to do with race... look at Will and Jada's kids

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by zip95

Of course there is and thats probably the whole point... win at capitalism and you too can short circuit the system for your children. It has nothing to do with race... look at Will and Jada's kids

So all the other people who have not managed to "win at capitalism" are losers, I take it.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

So all the other people who have not managed to "win at capitalism" are losers, I take it.

Competition implies that there will be both winners and losers, and competition is an essential feature of capitalism.

But that doesn't mean that those who fail are necessarily worthless or don't contribute anything to the system.

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

Competition implies that there will be both winners and losers, and competition is an essential feature of capitalism.

But that doesn't mean that those who fail are necessarily worthless or don't contribute anything to the system.

Seems to me that capitalism is only valid if everyone plays by the same rules, which doesn't seem to be the case in the U.S., and while you may sincerely believe "that those who fail are [not] necessarily worthless or don't contribute anything to society," I don't think society-at-large takes the same attitude toward the so-called "losers," particularly in the conspicuous consumption-driven Anglo-American West, where the media and politicians prattle on and on about "chavs," "welfare queens," "illegals," and, well, "losers."

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

Seems to me that capitalism is only valid if everyone plays by the same rules, which doesn't seem to be the case ."

The "rulebook" if you will is just very complex.


But still, everyone wins out, even the losers.

Here in America, for many years Ford and Chevrolet battled it out economically to get the loyalty of more of the motoring public. Purchasers of both vehicles ended up with better cars than our East German friends who- without capitalism- only had the Trabant to drive, but Trabant never had the motivation to improve. It had a monopoly, you either bought one or walked in East Germany.

[Hopes]

I think the point is that saying someone "sold out to work for the man" is a cop out that prevents people from even throwing their hats into the competition of capitalism. Success doesn't mean being the top winner. Success can simply mean being financially secure. The negative messages about "working for the man" and "being white" contribute to children who think being smart and doing well in school is playing the man's game. Outdated sound bites can hinder members of the newer generations from moving forward. Yet the elders refuse to adapt their message.

This reminds me of an interview I saw a few years about of a black advocate in Brooklyn. She said she worried because her entire entity was wrapped up in her goals that she realized that she would lose her identity if she was successful because she would no longer be relevant. She hoped that she could let go and move on in peace instead of trying to stay angry and relevant. That was very profound and extremely insightful of her. The world needs more leaders like her, who are capable of assessing situations and using critical thinking, instead of people who simply regurgitate outdated sound bites without thinking about what they are saying and the impact of what they are saying.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by Hopes

The community needs to work this out among themselves.

There's nothing to work out. Diversity of opinion is healthy and people are free to labor under any delusions they want. My only hope is that some young kid reads this and starts to question this "common wisdom" that really isn't wisdom at all. People fought so their children could play the game. Now they want their children to play while also placating old uncle Lester's sensibilities and carrying Cousin Pookie. I cant understand why people would teach others that the most important thing in life is being "down for the cause" and making sure no one thinks you are an uncle Tom sellout. Talk about cement shoes! Well... Don't be surprised then when some Asian immigrant smacks the crap out of your kid. Dont be shocked when they get beat by some other kid from Fox Chapel who isn't expected to play under any such constraints.

So, like I said in my first post... Good luck with that!