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Buyers will like the quality of the work and materials. That's why flippers destroy old houses.
Right. It's easier to demolish the old interiors and build new than to actually restore something of quality, because that might actually take a degree of craftsmanship or talent or taste. Meanwhile, buyers are paying the premium price because they heard the neighborhood is up-and-coming, and flock like sheep to an area that preservationists, old house lovers, and urban pioneers worked hard to stabilize. But they're buying into something that has nothing to do with why the neighborhood was worth saving in the first place. Just hope we don't see the day when historic homes are demolished for new construction.
Last edited by PreservationPioneer; 07-01-2013 at 12:57 AM..
Regardless of how wealthy the city is, or becomes, people will still be needed to mow the lawns, mop the floors and man the take out windows at fast food joints, among other entry level positions.
Not all of us who mop floors are poor.... some of us are owner/operators.....
Right. It's easier to demolish the old interiors and build new than to actually restore something of quality, because that might actually take a degree of craftsmanship or talent or taste. Meanwhile, buyers are paying the premium price because they heard the neighborhood is up-and-coming, and flock like sheep to an area that preservationists, old house lovers, and urban pioneers worked hard to stabilize. But they're buying into something that has nothing to do with why the neighborhood was worth saving in the first place. Just hope we don't see the day when historic homes are demolished for new construction.
The other thing is that old houses rarely have the amenities todays' homes have. I see it all the HGTV -- I want historic I want historic -- where are the walk in closets where are the double sinks where are the master baths (now all called en suites, because a ton of HGTV programming comes from Canada) why are the kitchens so small why isn't there.... fill in the blank.
Because a house built in 1924 DOESN'T HAVE THOSE THINGS.
Don't get me wrong -- I live in a 1924 house, but it lives like a 1924 house. Which is perfectly fine.
Until we put them in -- the whole of my dining room had NO electrical plugs -- just an overhead chandelier. With a nice plaster medallion. I have a little pantry cupboard made out of the Montgomery Wards refrigerator box. The fridge came in a plywood box and they used it in the house. You can open the cabinet and read it.
To me that's cool.
But the next house? Yeah -- I'm gonna have a master bath, and a walk in closet. And a dishwasher. And if it's a Craftsman Bungalow -- sorry can't do steps with these knees and his back, so no Victorians for us -- it's going to be nicely updated -- and sort of suburban. I want to live in today's world. I've done my stint in urban land, and I've done my stint in historical. My version of a walkable neighborhood is one where I can walk for health, not a to Starbucks.
Wow, what a difference between the two houses! I'm sorry to hear that your grandmother's home is abandoned. I had pretty much the opposite experience. My grandmother lived on Haight St. in SF, about a mile or two outside of the famous area most people think of when they hear "Haight Ashbury". When she died in 1965 the neighborhood was declining. Over the past decades the neighborhood has come roaring back and is now quite gentrified. Here's a link to the house (wish our family still owned it!), it's the one with the white car in the driveway: https://maps.google.com/maps?f=d. Here's a link to the house I grew up in across the street from the entrance to GG Park: https://www.google.com/maps?q=&layer...ed=0CC4QxB0wAA It's the one with the striped awning. It hasn't been maintained very well which is odd considering it's in a nice neighborhood. Anyway, these houses may be partly why I have such a love of old homes.
Right. It's easier to demolish the old interiors and build new than to actually restore something of quality, because that might actually take a degree of craftsmanship or talent or taste. Meanwhile, buyers are paying the premium price because they heard the neighborhood is up-and-coming, and flock like sheep to an area that preservationists, old house lovers, and urban pioneers worked hard to stabilize. But they're buying into something that has nothing to do with why the neighborhood was worth saving in the first place. Just hope we don't see the day when historic homes are demolished for new construction.
Well said. I am lucky to be in an area that, while it's not as wealthy as it must have been in the early 1900s, is very middle class. I live on a block of stately old homes in Crafton, near historic Creighton Ave. Most people here are like me. They bought because they wanted a historic house in decent condition in a safe neighborhood that wasn't too expensive. Our neighborhood's homes are not in danger like those in declining neighborhoods, or maybe even worse, popular neighborhoods that attract flippers who care little for the historic details and are just looking for a quick buck.
The other thing is that old houses rarely have the amenities todays' homes have. I see it all the HGTV -- I want historic I want historic -- where are the walk in closets where are the double sinks where are the master baths (now all called en suites, because a ton of HGTV programming comes from Canada) why are the kitchens so small why isn't there.... fill in the blank.
Because a house built in 1924 DOESN'T HAVE THOSE THINGS.
Don't get me wrong -- I live in a 1924 house, but it lives like a 1924 house. Which is perfectly fine.
Until we put them in -- the whole of my dining room had NO electrical plugs -- just an overhead chandelier. With a nice plaster medallion. I have a little pantry cupboard made out of the Montgomery Wards refrigerator box. The fridge came in a plywood box and they used it in the house. You can open the cabinet and read it.
To me that's cool.
But the next house? Yeah -- I'm gonna have a master bath, and a walk in closet. And a dishwasher. And if it's a Craftsman Bungalow -- sorry can't do steps with these knees and his back, so no Victorians for us -- it's going to be nicely updated -- and sort of suburban. I want to live in today's world. I've done my stint in urban land, and I've done my stint in historical. My version of a walkable neighborhood is one where I can walk for health, not a to Starbucks.
Those HGTV shows where people claim to want historic homes crack me up too! Then they complain about the things that aren't like a modern suburban home. Don't they have any idea what an old house is like when they claim to want one?
I decided to buy a big old historic home now because I'm at an age where in 10+ years I may not be able to manage a big old house with lots of stairs and all the maintenance the comes with it. For the time being I'm enjoying it. I did add a 2nd floor laundry room by converting a tiny bedroom right next to the bathroom which provided easy access to the plumbing. My knees and back are very happy not having to carry laundry up and down stairs. I also gutted the kitchen of its former 1960s "remuddle". Luckily no one had taken out the old woodwork. I had my new cabinets stained to match. I have almost no closet space, but the bedrooms are big enough for armoires and dressers. I don't have a master suite. If I wanted one I could convert the attic as it is huge, finished, and has an ugly DIY remuddled bathroom that could be renovated. I'll probably convert it if I ever decide to sell, but for now it's going to be my office/studio space. My house lent itself to modern updates that didn't destroy its character, but not all old houses do. Glad to hear you've kept the Craftsman era alive in your home.
I see at least three problems with the exterior of the house on Concord. First of all, there are some hideous white PVC pipes going up the front wall. Second, the railing is made out of a 2x4. Third, the side wall is covered with ghastly white vinyl siding. On a brick house. Also, the windows are wrong. On the interior, you have the wrong baseboards throughout. For that price point in that neighborhood, the house should be exceptional, and these errors are unacceptable.
My own thoughts:
1. The pipes are probably a radon mitigation system. It should have been put on the rear of the house, but it's pretty much a must to have one put in if you fail a radon test (as we did).
2. Railing is an easy problem to fix
3. I'm guessing this was part of a row, and the siding was put up to cover a rough, uneven brick wall left by the "ghost" of the other house.
4. Wood windows is asking for a lot these days. Only houses in high neglect or those in the North Side historic districts have them. At least the windows are the right size for the openings.
5. Baseboards are fixable with a quick trip to Allegheny Millworks. We needed a small amount of trim for our living room (there was atrocious wood paneling on one side of the room, and they had taken the trim off) and we found a match so close you'd need to be on the floor to notice.
On the whole, I'd say the house has enough character left to be worth a purchase. The original window trim, door frames, and stairwell appear to be in place, and it still has curb appeal. If I knew my daughter was set for the magnet system already, I'd buy it and work on bringing out what's left of the original features. If the price was just a bit lower I could sell my house in Lawrenceville (which is like half the square footage), pay for the house in cash, effectively have no mortgage, and concentrate on using what would have been mortgage money towards restoration.
Right. It's easier to demolish the old interiors and build new than to actually restore something of quality, because that might actually take a degree of craftsmanship or talent or taste. Meanwhile, buyers are paying the premium price because they heard the neighborhood is up-and-coming, and flock like sheep to an area that preservationists, old house lovers, and urban pioneers worked hard to stabilize. But they're buying into something that has nothing to do with why the neighborhood was worth saving in the first place.
I think part of it is the "loft mentality" that people have regarding urban living. Since the development of Soho lofts in the 1960s, there's this idea that you take an urban space, scour it down to nothing, and rebuilt it in a stark, modernist aesthetic. That works for former industrial spaces, which had little interior character. But people expect to see this when they go into an updated rowhouse as well, so they want that same industrial look - which is where the love of the exposed brick and "open floor plan" comes from. But these houses are supposed to be fussy and split into lots of smallish rooms, and I think you should be true to that vision.
Kitchens and bathrooms are a different story though. No one seems to know how to do crap besides McMansion these days. Maybe they retain a clawfoot tub if you're lucky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer
Just hope we don't see the day when historic homes are demolished for new construction.
Land values will need to get much, much higher here for that. Hopefully we'll have historic districts protecting our remaining 19th century neighborhoods by that time as well.
Until we put them in -- the whole of my dining room had NO electrical plugs -- just an overhead chandelier. With a nice plaster medallion.
That reminds me of the dining room in my 1905 house in Morgantown. I have outlets in the walls, but it's the only room in the house that still doesn't have an electric light in the ceiling. Instead, there's an old gas fixture up there. (I also have a gas fixture in the ceiling out on my porch.) I think these old vestiges are cool, but functionally, it would be better if I modernized it.
Because my house was converted to a multi-family sometime in the 30s, it has some significant changes from its original condition. Years before I bought it, the original kitchen was moved from the back of the first floor to the front, where the foyer was, to create an additional bedroom in the apartment. Behind my stove, I can see the outline of where the original staircase used to be before the house was subdivided. I tear up sometimes thinking about what it must have been like. I'll never know, but given the woodwork in the rest of the house it must have been grand. When the previous owners moved the kitchen, they got all new cabinetry--not cheap stuff, but not historically minded either--a small dishwasher, one small slab of granite, but ugly laminate counters from Ikea otherwise (?), and kept the original porcelain hanging sink. It was a weird mishmash of old, new, expensive, and cheap. I loved that sink, despite the fact that it was not very functional. After a year of needling, my mom convinced me to "finish" the kitchen, replacing the laminate with quartz, adding a modern, double farm style sink and filling in cabinets where the old one use to hang. I felt guilty, and told her "But I really like the old sink on a philosophical level," to which she replied, "Well, your dad will put it in the basement, and you can go down there when you want to be philosophical." I rationalized it by saying that the original kitchen was destroyed anyway, and that the old/new combination that was there was both functionally and aesthetically strange. And yes, the new setup is way more pleasant to use and to look at, so I don't have any real regrets, but sometimes when I go down to the basement and see that old sink staring at me, I still feel unsettled!
Even though the previous owners made some questionable remodeling decisions, they did keep every piece of wood that they took out of the house. My garage is full of old baseboards, trim, doors. I found a couple boxes of original subway tile in the the attic. Some of it is in bad shape but some is salvageable. The bathroom in the upstairs apartment still has the original tile floor and subway tile on 3 of the four walls. It's amazing! Sadly, the original tub was ripped out and a horrible stall shower and washer/dryer installed on the fourth wall. What to do with that is my next dilemma, since I'll be moving into that apartment in August to use as my Mo-town crash pad, and plan to do some renovation/restoration up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallysmom
I have a little pantry cupboard made out of the Montgomery Wards refrigerator box. The fridge came in a plywood box and they used it in the house. You can open the cabinet and read it.
To me that's cool.
That is very cool. I love the lingering signs that old houses have of how they came to be the way they are today.
I think part of it is the "loft mentality" that people have regarding urban living. Since the development of Soho lofts in the 1960s, there's this idea that you take an urban space, scour it down to nothing, and rebuilt it in a stark, modernist aesthetic. That works for former industrial spaces, which had little interior character. But people expect to see this when they go into an updated rowhouse as well, so they want that same industrial look - which is where the love of the exposed brick and "open floor plan" comes from. But these houses are supposed to be fussy and split into lots of smallish rooms, and I think you should be true to that vision.
I think you're 100% correct. I worry that the integrity of houses is being destroyed to satisfy a fad--so much so that the only thing "historical" looking about a property is its facade--and may come to be regretted in the future.
My apartment in Lawrenceville is one of those open-floor-plan loft-type places. It's not in a rowhouse, though, but in a building that, at least according to the landlord, was originally used in glass making or ceramic firing or something of that nature. It's a beautiful place, but I find myself wishing we had gone for the intact rowhouse we looked at, with its many small rooms, rather than this big, open place with its tricked-out finishes.
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