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Yes. I've noted this in the past myself; however, while we're a bargain compared to NYC, SF, L.A., etc. we're now steeper in price than our Rust Belt peers while our wages have not been skyrocketing in similar fashion to keep pace with the rise in housing costs. We're NOT supposed to be comparing ourselves to NYC or SF. We're supposed to be comparing ourselves to Buffalo, Cleveland, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and other medium-sized metropolitan regions that aren't "on the coasts". In that regard we're now the Lexus while those other areas are still Fords.
Are these cities all really comparable to Pittsburgh, though? I mean, they certainly are similar in terms of size, history, architecture, and so forth, but do these cities provide the same economic opportunities and amenities as Pittsburgh? From my research (which admittedly probably isn't as thorough as yours), it seems that Pittsburgh offers a much nicer compromise between cost of living and quality of life. Demand seems to be increasing in Pittsburgh over Buffalo, for example, for a reason.
Also, wage stagnation is an issue everywhere. Wouldn't an increase in wages also lead to a corresponding increase in demand in the housing market?
I agree that it could be a serious detriment to the quality of life in Pittsburgh if rental prices increase dramatically while wages stay stagnant, but I still think it's a better overall tradeoff than living in NYC, making even twice as much money, and then paying three times as much to live in a crappy studio in a sketchy part of town.
Cleveland, Buffalo, and Cincinnatti really aren't cheaper than Pittsburgh, though. And the job market is not nearly as healthy! You would be hard pressed to find a city with 1 bedroom apartments in fashionable neighborhoods for $500 / month, or move in ready homes in decent city neighborhoods for under say $40,000. The bottom line is that any city where you can find a job making more than minimum wage is going to have more expensive housing than a city with no jobs.
I think the job market is better and optmistic when compared to the cities you listed.
Are people in Pgh having trouble finding work, I don't doubt it. But the leverage is you can rely on a community for support than nothing at all (which was a big problem in Denver, having no communal properties)
Are these cities all really comparable to Pittsburgh, though? I mean, they certainly are similar in terms of size, history, architecture, and so forth, but do these cities provide the same economic opportunities and amenities as Pittsburgh? From my research (which admittedly probably isn't as thorough as yours), it seems that Pittsburgh offers a much nicer compromise between cost of living and quality of life. Demand seems to be increasing in Pittsburgh over Buffalo, for example, for a reason.
I think Pittsburgh does have a lot to attract people to, and perhaps that does come from having multiple industries to rely on for revenue.
And as we are moving towards a rent economy, I really don't see Pittsburgh being snubbed out of it.
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Also, wage stagnation is an issue everywhere. Wouldn't an increase in wages also lead to a corresponding increase in demand in the housing market?
Yes it would, are you saying such is a problem?
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I agree that it could be a serious detriment to the quality of life in Pittsburgh if rental prices increase dramatically while wages stay stagnant, but I still think it's a better overall tradeoff than living in NYC, making even twice as much money, and then paying three times as much to live in a crappy studio in a sketchy part of town.
But again we can't keep comparing Pgh to NYC, LA, San Diego, etc. There are so many different reasons why the living is so expensive compared to elsewhere.
And if you have people that cannot afford the rental prices because they are not getting enough from their wages, well don't be surprised when you start seeing more in crime.
I'm just relaying my own personal experience as an individual who worked for PNC (#2 local employer) within an installation of UPMC (#1 local employer). I was earning the same hourly wage as those employed in my position were earning several years ago, despite the fact that our local cost-of-living had increased since then, and I was assisting clients (employees of #1) who were largely as underwhelmed by their own compensation as I was with mine (the difference being they weren't terminated for bashing their own employer, but I digress). Granted not everyone in Pittsburgh works for UPMC or PNC; however, those two money-grabbing goliaths have enough dominance here to help set the tone for our local "prevailing wage" amongst other employers in these industries.
I'm just relaying my own personal experience as an individual who worked for PNC (#2 local employer) within an installation of UPMC (#1 local employer). I was earning the same hourly wage as those employed in my position were earning several years ago, despite the fact that our local cost-of-living had increased since then, and I was assisting clients (employees of #1) who were largely as underwhelmed by their own compensation as I was with mine (the difference being they weren't terminated for bashing their own employer, but I digress). Granted not everyone in Pittsburgh works for UPMC or PNC; however, those two money-grabbing goliaths have enough dominance here to help set the tone for our local "prevailing wage" amongst other employers in these industries.
Oh believe me, I made a fatal mistake of revealing my wages indirectly to my colleagues and they were not happy.
But I am surprised you are making the same versus that of a few years ago if you were in the same position. Not even an adjustment for inflation?
That's kind of crazy. I thought about taking my experience to PNC, since many of the people that work in the company I do end up finding employment there, but I might have to change my mind.
I think Pittsburgh does have a lot to attract people to, and perhaps that does come from having multiple industries to rely on for revenue.
And as we are moving towards a rent economy, I really don't see Pittsburgh being snubbed out of it.
Agreed with both of these things.
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Originally Posted by Strelok
Yes it would, are you saying such is a problem?
I was responding to SCR, who mentioned wage stagnation with rising rents to be an issue. I was merely pointing out that rental prices would continue to increase if wages increased, rather than staying stagnant. I don't think this is a problem, as demand is what drives a healthy economy.
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Originally Posted by Strelok
But again we can't keep comparing Pgh to NYC, LA, San Diego, etc. There are so many different reasons why the living is so expensive compared to elsewhere.
All I meant was that for someone looking to relocate, the tradeoff between lower wages and lower housing prices seems to work in Pittsburgh's favor. I agree that COL is determined by a lot of factors. It's just that the COL in Pittsburgh allows for one to spend a lot less of their income on housing compared to the coastal metros, and it will take a pretty big increase in rents for that to change.
It's all about your own exceptions OP. Are you going to get a $500 dollar one bedroom apartment in a trendy walkable hip blah blah blah neighborhood? No way. But you can get that in a neighborhood that's less desirable. Are prices for everything else (groceries, transportation, insurance, utilities, clothing) going to be enormously cheaper here? Nope, in fact some are more expensive here. But you can save money if you know how to be frugal.
If anyone thinks Pittsburgh is this perfect balance of low cost and "check every box" living then they're mistaken. It's not a hidden cheapo Mecca, it's just another mid-size American city that's better than some of the others. Also, stop comparing Pittsburgh to LA, NY, or San Francisco. It's an unfair comparison and it's quite silly to put this city in that same league on any level.
It's all about your own exceptions OP. Are you going to get a $500 dollar one bedroom apartment in a trendy walkable hip blah blah blah neighborhood? No way. But you can get that in a neighborhood that's less desirable. Are prices for everything else (groceries, transportation, insurance, utilities, clothing) going to be enormously cheaper here? Nope, in fact some are more expensive here. But you can save money if you know how to be frugal.
If anyone thinks Pittsburgh is this perfect balance of low cost and "check every box" living then they're mistaken. It's not a hidden cheapo Mecca, it's just another mid-size American city that's better than some of the others. Also, stop comparing Pittsburgh to LA, NY, or San Francisco. It's an unfair comparison and it's quite silly to put this city in that same league on any level.
Well this is exactly what I am driving at.
If people that come to this board and are thinking about moving to Pittsburgh, then we need to set the expectations on what exactly we mean by low cost of living. Related to what, and so on.
Somebody might see folks clamoring about how great the low cost of living is, make the mistake of assuming that applies to everything, and realize it ain't what was said.
So if your context is to live frugally, then if someone doesn't want to live as such, then I guess Pgh ain't for them.
Personally how I define low cost of living, are cheap housing, groceries, gas, utilities, etc.
Has anybody answered why Giant Eagle and the other markets are still expensive when this competition should drive down prices?
I think this narrative of relatively lower cost of living in relation to other parts of the country has reached its denouement.
Yes, in decades prior it was very much the case and in fact shielded much of the 2008 economic crisis. However as someone that moved from an extremely afluent influx of population (Colorado) to Pgh, I can't help but to think it is nothing more than a myth used by locals to project its own vitality.
The diminishing vacancy of housing in the metro area has spiked costs. I recall when rent was around the 300-500 for a one bedroom. And while you might get away with this on a private listing, many apartments are asking for double. And to be quite frank, none of them are really worth paying double. A lot of them are in much need of renovation.
Food prices are surprisingly more than when I was in Colorado. How is this possible? There are many competing local markets, yet prices for food remain high.
But before I continue to rant on further subjects, I would like to know what criteria people from Pittsburgh here are using in justifying the claim of "low cost of living", because I am not seeing it.
I would have to agree with you. Pittsburgh has become the most expensive rust belt city to reside in. Allegheny County has the highest property taxes in Pennsylvania and is one of the highest property taxed counties in the country.
There may be some population growth, but the wages are stagnant. Yet housing costs are rising at light speed. Pittsburgh may be on the brink of its own housing bubble to burst. You cannot sustain high housing prices with stagnant wages and flat population growth.
The official census numbers for the inner city were 305,704 in 2010. In 2011 the population estimate was over 307,000 and the most recent 2012 estimate released this year showed Pittsburgh's population a tick over 306,000. If the estimates are correct from 2011 to 2012 Pittsburgh has lost most of what it gained population wise in 2011.
Now we are one of the worst performing us cities for job growth with high unemployment.
I think pittsburgh's population rose from 2010 to 2011 due to college students staying put because of the weak economy nationwide. It appears to be headed back down as the other cities have rebounded. Young people are going to go where there is opportunity. The job creation for Pittsburgh over the last year and a half has not been good. It is starting to reflect in the decrease in population.
Can someone clarify the housing costs in Pgh, it seems to me that a lot of the apartment/condo buildings are pretty old, so comparing Pgh housing to other cities may not be a similar type of comparison. I also have heard a lot of apartments are really divided up older houses. What would an average rent for a fairly new 1 bdrm apartment in a safe convenient neighborhood be? By fairly new I'd say built within the past decade.
How much rent would the same type of place been 5 years ago?
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