What pieces of the puzzle does Pittsburgh lack to be a great city? (Allentown: cul-de-sac, homes)

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Fayette County is in the MSA now too, as is Armstrong, although I frankly haven't a clue why. I can't think of anyone who commutes from there into Pittsburgh.

While I agree that functionally speaking it wouldn't add anything but bragging rights, look at the maroons on the General U.S. forum who say things like "Jacksonville is the 12th largest U.S. city, why don't we ever hear anything about it? LOL!"

The fact of the matter is, having broad city limits which encompass a good deal of the metro's population have given cities like Columbus and Indianapolis more buzz than similar-sized metros have in the midwest. People routinely think these cities must be doing great things because they continue to grow despite being in a "rust-belt" area. Never mind it's in large part because there are still substantial numbers of subdivisions being built within the city proper.

Yeah, the MSAs are a little strange, based as they are on commuting patterns. There is another measure which I can't think of now to save my life, which is more accurate.

I don't post much on Gen US, and I've never seen such a post. You could always point out that Jacksonville is #40 in MSA, behind (obviously) 39 other larger cities. I haven't been to Columbus in many decades, and not to Indy in a few (decades), but Indy has a nickname of "Indian-no place" in the midwest. I have no idea what midwestern cities you're comparing these places to.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The fact of the matter is, having broad city limits which encompass a good deal of the metro's population have given cities like Columbus and Indianapolis more buzz than similar-sized metros have in the midwest. People routinely think these cities must be doing great things because they continue to grow despite being in a "rust-belt" area. Never mind it's in large part because there are still substantial numbers of subdivisions being built within the city proper.

In Columbus at least, if you work in the city you pay income tax to the city proper even if you live in a suburb. That makes it possible for the city to have enough revenue to maintain the core and do things to attract new businesses and such.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

In Columbus at least, if you work in the city you pay income tax to the city proper even if you live in a suburb. That makes it possible for the city to have enough revenue to maintain the core and do things to attract new businesses and such.

Indianapolis and Columbus grew huge in different ways.

Indianapolis as we know it was a city-county merger engineered in 1970. It was essentially engineered because the Republican political machine saw the city was becoming majority black, and they would lose control, and they figured they could hold onto control for decades longer if they brought in all the suburban portions of the county. They were right, since it was only around a decade ago Democrats finally began winning in Indianapolis. Regardless, despite jumping to the 11th-largest city in the country overnight, the old city of Indianapolis continued to decay for at least another twenty years. As the city was essentially governed by suburban interests, they used "urban renewal" to increase the amenities downtown for commuters and essentially razed all the 19th century neighborhoods. Indianapolis used to be a "rowhouse city" similar to Pittsburgh, but only a few ghosts remain. The population continues to shrink in every segment of the city core, with only the growth of the suburban fringe masking the city's problems.

Columbus was a bit different. In order to protect the tax base, the city set up a policy that if city water and sewer hookups were provided, annexation followed. As a result, it got very wonky borders. The city core retains some intact 19th century neighborhoods in the core which are very desirable, like German Village and Victorian Village. Still, for every stable neighborhood, there are still fairly blighted inner-city ones (particularly in the East Side), so it's not like the urban core is as a whole doing fantastic.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

But I'm not suggesting that Pittsburgh should be World Class. It's more a question of what it should be and what elements is it missing? Atlanta is going places, but where is Pittsburgh going?

Where is Atlanta going besides expansion expansion? I'm not really particularly interested, but since you continue to bring it up in comparison, I can only assume you see that as positive and Pittsburgh as not. I do not look at Atlanta and find anything to aspire to. Is that what you're hoping for, that people in Pittsburgh aspire to be Atlanta?

I'm still at a loss to figure out other places that have this sort of narrative that you speak of. I don't think it's common, so to me it seems you are singling this place out.

Meanwhile, the thread is what any thread remotely like this topic could be expected to be on this forum.

In short, you don't get to anything useful in a thread like this, unless your intent is to incite infighting and bashing and petty disagreements about city borders, litter and weather. I don't think that was your intent, but sometimes I wonder.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by greg42

Where is Atlanta going besides expansion expansion? I'm not really particularly interested, but since you continue to bring it up in comparison, I can only assume you see that as positive and Pittsburgh as not. I do not look at Atlanta and find anything to aspire to. Is that what you're hoping for, that people in Pittsburgh aspire to be Atlanta?

I lived in Atlanta for many yeas so I know it. Atlanta is going to be an international city. It already has many consulates for many countries and a lot of international destinations from its airport which is the world's busiest. What impressed me is Atlanta set out a goal and achieved it.

I'm not saying Pittsburgh should be Atlanta, or even an international city. It appears to have recovered from its industrial collapse but now it should decide what's next.

I'm still at a loss to figure out other places that have this sort of narrative that you speak of. I don't think it's common, so to me it seems you are singling this place out.

Probably Charlotte as I think they hope to duplicate Atlanta's success. I think they want to follow Atlanta's lead. Portland OR has set growth boundaries and seems to be focused on quality of life, not growth. Birmingham was vying with Atlanta in the 1950s for dominance but they blew a deal to get Delta to put its hub there and instead they picked Atlanta which was a turning point for Atlanta as Atlanta blew past Birmingham. Only recently has Alabama been making some gains as they got Mercedes and soon Airbus.

Meanwhile, the thread is what any thread remotely like this topic could be expected to be on this forum.

In short, you don't get to anything useful in a thread like this, unless your intent is to incite infighting and bashing and petty disagreements about city borders, litter and weather. I don't think that was your intent, but sometimes I wonder.

That's the fault of the posters. I'll post some ideas but I don't live on this board so it'll be gradual. My first idea was to commit to having a nationally recognized Public Market in the Strip. Recent events with Buncher and the Produce Terminal have put a damper on that. Seems like one element is to use a classy old building like Cleveland's West Side Market to give the proper atmosphere but about a 1/3 of the Produce Terminal is to be destroyed.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I wouldn't use it to cheerlead us as a "major american city," but I would use it to give a more reasonable comparison to cities like Columbus (being one of the ones I'm more familiar with). You can't convince me that we're a "smaller" city than Columbus just because they've scarfed up every town within a county and a half.

And I don't think that anyone's mentioned that Columbus is Ohio's capital city, so it's going to have all of the government bureaucracy that will bloat its size.

[gortonator]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

And I don't think that anyone's mentioned that Columbus is Ohio's capital city, so it's going to have all of the government bureaucracy that will bloat its size.

I think they have, but facts simply don't get in the way of the zeal of the man with 63 zzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzz's

Pittsburgh should strive to be the best Pittsburgh it can be. Aspirations like nationally recognized public markets as someone has suggested are great. Better transport would be great. A hub of technological innovation would be great. Encourage a vibrant microbrewing industry (Portland did that). Innovative and vibrant music scene. I wouldn't say no to any of these, and I'm sure there are many other possibilities.

But yep, setting a couple wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

And I don't think that anyone's mentioned that Columbus is Ohio's capital city, so it's going to have all of the government bureaucracy that will bloat its size.

As is Indian-no-place!

[Geeo]

I think the legwork for Pittsburgh becoming a "great" city was started two decades ago with the CMU report when Richard Cyert was president. I'm sure it's online somewhere. They got together a whole bunch of data on where Pittsburgh had been, where it was as of 1990-ish, and determined that a diversification of the economy was in order. They targetted university research, the medical field, manufacturing and finance as a good quad-underpinning of a future economy. The report said something about attracting the "lost" generation (those young people who left in the 1980s, thereby taking their children and future children with them). But they knew it would take many years for those plans to come to fruition.

Pittsburgh had gradually improved through the 1990s and into the early part of this century, but the critical mass really started coming together about mid-decade with the leveling off and slight increase in population, more young people moving here, one of the best-educated workforces of people in their 20s and 30s, and new business coming into the region. I don't really know how to define a "great" city, but I count it as a success if it is one that has a good quality of life, a decent job for people who want one, a good place to be young and old, cultural opportunities, a good medical establishment, a respect for the environment, and a vibrant business community. In that respect we're much better than we were three decades ago, when a lot of people were seriously wondering if we were going to make it.

[zman63]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

And I don't think that anyone's mentioned that Columbus is Ohio's capital city, so it's going to have all of the government bureaucracy that will bloat its size.

So how do you explain harrisburg in pa and albany in new york? Both are larger states than ohio. It comes down to the fact columbus just knows how to use its resources better and it set itself up to succeed. Yes ohio state is huge, but pittsburgh has colleges equaling half of their enrollment. No excuses.

With pittsburgh the problem is the burbs are bigger than the city limits. The burbs have all of the power. Allegheny county has 1.2 mill residents. 900k of them live outside of the city. I dont know why people say pgh has character because no subdivisions. Our county is mostly subdivisions and strip malls! The city is changing for the better but how far is it going to go? 900k people dont want anyhing to do with helping the city or change with the city. Then you have the surrounding counties and they dont want anything to do with agh county or pittsburgh.