The End of Penn Circle (Pittsburgh: 2014, how much, to buy)

[Bong477]

Its moving in the right direction clearly. Whether you believe the EL boom started with Home Depot or Whole Foods or even Target, either way its taken a long time and EL still isn't completely gentrified yet. Expecting the surrounding areas to change overnight just isn't realistic.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Burgher

Then why did the pedestrian mall in Carnegie fail?
That would certainly have been considered suburban at the time.

Nationwide, virtually all pedestrian malls failed. They were a fad which just didn't work in the U.S. context (although they seem to work okay in Europe for some reason). The only places they have been successful are in very small cities which tend to have a university anchor, or a nearby tourist attraction like the beach.

One reason I have read why they failed was the perceived safety issues. Unlike a real mall, a pedestrian mall was not private property. In areas which had low-income residents, they became magnets for the homeless, druggies, and other loiterers which made suburban shoppers uncomfortable.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by eschaton

One reason I have read why they failed was the perceived safety issues. Unlike a real mall, a pedestrian mall was not private property. In areas which had low-income residents, they became magnets for the homeless, druggies, and other loiterers which made suburban shoppers uncomfortable.

In addition, people go to covered malls to avoid the weather. It's something to do on a rainy/snowy/blistering hot day. People are willing to park and then walk a quarter of a mile to a store in a covered mall--but they're not as likely to walk the same distance to a store in a pedestrian mall (especially if the sidewalks are icy).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Caladium

In addition, people go to covered malls to avoid the weather. It's something to do on a rainy/snowy/blistering hot day. People are willing to park and then walk a quarter of a mile to a store in a covered mall--but they're not as likely to walk the same distance to a store in a pedestrian mall (especially if the sidewalks are icy).

I agree that people go into malls and similar air-conditioned spaces to "beat the heat," but I'm not sure you can say the same thing about other inclement weather. Particularly with snow, people tend to want to limit their recreational driving. In my experience with severe snowstorms in Pittsburgh is people will be much more apt to trudge up to the corner store on foot than attempt to drive down to the mall after a major snowstorm.

[ctoocheck]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Nationwide, virtually all pedestrian malls failed. They were a fad which just didn't work in the U.S. context (although they seem to work okay in Europe for some reason). The only places they have been successful are in very small cities which tend to have a university anchor, or a nearby tourist attraction like the beach.

Interestingly, Cumberland MD has a ped mall which is cute, if perhaps not exactly booming with liveliness (at least not the one or two times I've been through). But it's a nice little town if you're ever passing by.

[doo dah]

Wow, how did people manage to live their lives before shopping malls?

[ctoocheck]

Originally Posted by Caladium

In addition, people go to covered malls to avoid the weather. It's something to do on a rainy/snowy/blistering hot day. People are willing to park and then walk a quarter of a mile to a store in a covered mall--but they're not as likely to walk the same distance to a store in a pedestrian mall (especially if the sidewalks are icy).

On a related note, it'd be interesting to look into what ratio of shopping is done is enclosed malls vs. strip malls. Should strip malls prevail, I would imagine traditional urban commercial streets would be a much more pleasant alternative with likely the similar, maybe less, overall exposure to potential weather.

[LIRefugee]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

On a related note, it'd be interesting to look into what ratio of shopping is done is enclosed malls vs. strip malls. Should strip malls prevail, I would imagine traditional urban commercial streets would be a much more pleasant alternative with likely the similar, maybe less, overall exposure to potential weather.

On a related related note, anecdotally, it looks like the trend in mall development is to move away from fully enclosed malls and towards "lifestyle centers", i.e. fake town centers with simulated streets where the shops are accessed from outside. This differs from strip malls in that the shops are accessed from narrow outdoor streets and not from vast parking lots out front. The first time I saw Walnut St. I knew what the lifestyle centers were trying to replicate. Strip malls are something of the worst of both worlds: car-dependent, set back from the street, lots of space devoted to parking, but also fully outdoors.

In any case, it seems to me that shopping center development, by and large, is starting to head in the direction of creating outdoor town-center-type things and not fully-enclosed structures completely surrounded by a giant parking lot.

[ctoocheck]

Originally Posted by LIRefugee

In any case, it seems to me that shopping center development, by and large, is starting to head in the direction of creating outdoor town-center-type things and not fully-enclosed structures completely surrounded by a giant parking lot.

Good point. I suppose developers have already seen a market for such things. It's certainly a more common thing these days (though I really hate the term "lifestyle center").
It'd be nice to see more such mixed-use, walkable areas like the South Side Works instead of semi-walkable islands in a sea of parking like the Waterfront. Or better yet, retrofitting of existing (struggling) neighborhood cores, of which there are many in the area. Hopefully we're moving back in that direction.

[doo dah]

Except that, like the Waterfront, you have to get in your car and drive from one area to the other, as the sidewalks are minimal. Oh, and, inclement weather, OMG