Megabus No Longer Goes West Outta the Burgh (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: real estate, 2013)

[pman]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

I'm not sure how to compare the subsidies between industries, but the idea that US Air hasn't also been dependent on government aid is wrong.

on the eastern side the subsidy at lancaster airport is much smaller in total than the amtrak subsidy. OTOH, the Amtrak subsidy, when I calculated it a few years ago, was something like $6 per ride while the air service subsidy was around $110 per ride. it's easier to lower those numbers on a train. also, I have a sneaking suspicion that greyhound is also subsidized to run the route that parallels the train. I know PennDOT subsidizes intercity bus operations as well. it costs less but fewer people use them as well. c'est la vie. I've never seen a list of subsidized services though.

[Buckeye Burgher]

so...basically anything other than walking, using your private car or bicycling receives a public subsidy.

[airwave09]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Burgher

so...basically anything other than walking, using your private car or bicycling receives a public subsidy.

Um no, private cars require a ton of subsidized costs, probably more than all other modes of public transportation combined. Road repairs and new highways are immensely expensive. And gas prices are already heavily subsidized.

[_Buster]

Originally Posted by airwave09

Um no, private cars require a ton of subsidized costs, probably more than all other modes of public transportation combined. Road repairs and new highways are immensely expensive. And gas prices are already heavily subsidized.

Gas is taxed, not subsidized. And that tax money is supposed to be used for road building and repairs

[SchellBelle]

I just took this route from AA-PIT on the 14th, most people got on in DET/TOL to get off in CLE. For the bus ride only being 6 hours long, it felt like an eternity!

[airwave09]

Originally Posted by _Buster

Gas is taxed, not subsidized. And that tax money is supposed to be used for road building and repairs

I'm sure it is subsidized at some point in the process, just look at how much the natural gas fracking process is subsidized.

[pman]

Originally Posted by _Buster

Gas is taxed, not subsidized. And that tax money is supposed to be used for road building and repairs

that's not entirely true. the military provides protection for oil shipments, oil facilities across the middle east. we went to war in iraq twice (oil). many roads are also subsidized. some roads are not subsidized, some buses are not subsidized. nobody is forcing greyhound or subsidizing them to run express buses. but yes, transportation is very heavily subsidized/cross subsidized. so much so that it is impossible to know what a non-subsidized transportation market might look like. roadways don't pay taxes and require government subsidies.transportation is a marginal business at best but the benefits are such that there is enormous pressure to bend it to your will. fwiw, the two mos unprofitable things in transportation is commuting (peak) capacity and rural passenger capacity. that goes for roads period, be they rail or paved.

[_Buster]

Originally Posted by pman

that's not entirely true. the military provides protection for oil shipments, oil facilities across the middle east. we went to war in iraq twice (oil). many roads are also subsidized. some roads are not subsidized, some buses are not subsidized. nobody is forcing greyhound or subsidizing them to run express buses. but yes, transportation is very heavily subsidized/cross subsidized. so much so that it is impossible to know what a non-subsidized transportation market might look like. roadways don't pay taxes and require government subsidies.transportation is a marginal business at best but the benefits are such that there is enormous pressure to bend it to your will. fwiw, the two mos unprofitable things in transportation is commuting (peak) capacity and rural passenger capacity. that goes for roads period, be they rail or paved.

if you look at it that way, then you could say pretty much anything and everything is subsidized. partly because the world is a complicated place, and partly because our tax code in the US is so effed up. but you do pay a lot of money in gas tax if you drive regularly. you also pay a lot of money in registration fees, parking taxes, sales tax on vehicles, highway tolls, etc. the list is long.

beyond that, on the non-consumer side, there are enormous amounts collected in Excise Taxes and also taxes on corporate profits of energy companies, taxes on dividend income they produce, and import/export fees and taxes.

[pman]

Originally Posted by _Buster

if you look at it that way, then you could say pretty much anything and everything is subsidized. partly because the world is a complicated place, and partly because our tax code in the US is so effed up. but you do pay a lot of money in gas tax if you drive regularly. you also pay a lot of money in registration fees, parking taxes, sales tax on vehicles, highway tolls, etc. the list is long.

beyond that, on the non-consumer side, there are enormous amounts collected in Excise Taxes and also taxes on corporate profits of energy companies, taxes on dividend income they produce, and import/export fees and taxes.

everything is cross subsidized and unfortunately no one is calculating roi but to be sure it is unlikely the corp profits that were actually paid in the us arent coveri g the enormous expenditure through the military. moreover gas taxes dont even cover maintenance.much of this is due to federalization. we all pay taxes to the feds and they determine which group of us gets the money back. republicans like to harp on welfare but its much larger than that. gas taxes in eastern cities paid for highways in arizona and other places. war spending has its own beneficiaries..largely in the south. ca benefits from federal irrigation, etc. lots of people pay taxes ut no one keeps tabs on roi. thats not the way it works. in transportation subsidies and regulatory policy rule the day. even amtrak pays taxes. sales tax , taxes on employees , alcohol taxes. subsidized train service can add value to surrounding properties as well much like a convention center. did drovers pay the full cost of highway construction when they knocked down neighborhoods and destroyed cities or did they use eminent domain and federal money to transfer wealth to suburbs while treating undesirable classes like u wanted inventory ?

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

I'm not sure how to compare the subsidies between industries, but the idea that US Air hasn't also been dependent on government aid is wrong.

I'm sure that US Air has been helped by government expenditures.


But that doesn't justify subsidies for someone else, unless those subsidies were going to mean less money going out to the airline industry, or more money coming in from somewhere else in taxation and fees.


I can't see add'l rail subsidies as being a fiscal positive, and they would create displaced workers in the air and bus industries.