The Great Pittsburgh Wine Rip-off (prices, legal, stores)

[gortonator]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

I'm a little afraid of PA getting rid of the state stores but keeping the regulations that protect beer distributors. I'd rather see them both go at once because I'm afraid that if the PLCB gets out of liquor sales, there won't be enough people with an interest in pushing back against the beer distributors. Everybody screams against socialism of the liquor stores, but a set of privately-held, government-enforced monopolies (which is what the beer distributors have) is worse as the gains are in private hands but everybody pays for enforcement.

Plus, I really want to be able to buy a six pack at the store closest to my house.

Yup - the beer system is possibly even more ridiculous, and undoubtedly beer is expensive in PA (I'm in Portland, OR now, where 6 packs of local micros in a gas station are 7-8 bucks). Weirdly I don't think the wine selection from the is bad at all, and there are many bargains to be had if you know what you're looking for. Still, it should go ... it's socialism and its dumb.

[Aqua Teen Carl]

The beer distributors that are for the current model argue that they will lose money if they are forced to sell beer in quantities less than 24. The idea is that they'll make more money selling cases rather than six packs.

Of course, this makes zero sense since they'll still be able to sell cases along side six packs if the law were to be changed. Now consumers would have more options and will actually be more likely to try out six packs rather than invest in an entire case of beer they might not like. Their real threat is the fact that the distributors who refuse to change will become obsolete. Having dealt with distributors who mark up cases and run dirty, unorganized stores with terrible storage practices I say the hell with them.

They're scared that people won't be forced to put up with their terrible stores any longer. They should evolve or go out of business, just like any other place in the free market.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl

The beer distributors that are for the current model argue that they will lose money if they are forced to sell beer in quantities less than 24. The idea is that they'll make more money selling cases rather than six packs.

Of course, this makes zero sense since they'll still be able to sell cases along side six packs if the law were to be changed.

That doesn't make sense because it isn't what the beer distributors are worried about. They don't care if they can sell six packs or not. They are worried about other people being able to sell six packs (or any other amount of beer). In every other state (except maybe Utah), you can go into nearly any grocery store and walk out with a twelve pack of something not much more than the cost of 1/2 of a case.

[Aqua Teen Carl]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

That doesn't make sense because it isn't what the beer distributors are worried about. They don't care if they can sell six packs or not. They are worried about other people being able to sell six packs (or any other amount of beer). In every other state (except maybe Utah), you can go into nearly any grocery store and walk out with a twelve pack of something not much more than the cost of 1/2 of a case.

Yeah, I was implying that as well but I guess it wasn't worded clearly enough. But yeah, you're exactly right. As I said they would have to evolve their business because it would force people to not have to deal with their crappy stores any longer since there would be options. Right now, aside from some (very overpriced) six pack shops and small number of Giant Eagles they are the only game in town for beer.

That doesn't even begin to cover the insane beer laws in place in PA too....

[erieguy]

While its ridiculous that beer can only be bought in distributors, Giant Eagle, and bars, there are beer distributors in all states even though beer is available in that states many stores. The stores simply do not have enough room to offer all of the varieties of beer a distributor does/can. A distributor I frequent has close to I believe 300 different micros and most every popular import/domestic. A grocery/convenience store isn't providing that selection.

[Goinback2011]

Originally Posted by gortonator

Hard to argue with this. Also I think sometimes its simply just difficult to change things like the PLCB as they become entrenched institutions with numerous groups having a vested interest in their survival.

I lived in WA which until recently had an almost equally dumb state run system. It only got changed by a citizen-driven referendum. If only PA had those ....

Given that there are no ballot referendums in PA, the only effective way to get rid of this system is to boycott the liquor stores.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Goinback2011

Given that there are no ballot referendums in PA, the only effective way to get rid of this system is to boycott the liquor stores.

And then we'll stop breathing until the air pollution is fixed.

[erieguy]

Don't forget to get everybody together and boycott the gas stations, too.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by Goinback2011

Given that there are no ballot referendums in PA, the only effective way to get rid of this system is to boycott the liquor stores.

This could be done. People would have to take risks and learn about things like anonymous remailers and proxies, but it might be very much worth it. A network of people who are traveling out of state and taking small orders to fill during their travels. You put say 10K of those folks together and you're making a dent.

It wouldn't be easy and it would take time and there would be repurcussions, but the bad press about both the existing system and the "police state" enforcement would cause a whole lot of politicians to look really bad.

One more thought, and this came up in a long conversation I had with Sen. Matt Smith a few years ago. The lobbyists for keeping the status quo aren't just the usual suspects. It's also chain restaurants. With the self-imposed limitations on # of licenses available in the "tucky" part of the state between here and Philly, those licenses are tres expensive. Keeping them expensive means that chains have the upper hand in acquiring the few that become available. And access to those licenses also trickles down to getting more favorable deals in development.

Again, I've lived in CT, MA, NY and NoVA (which still has bunker-style stores for hard liquor), but all have relatively unimpeded access to wine and beer - and other than VA, hard booze. They're entrepreneurial - an owner can choose what end of the market they want to serve, how much training their staff gets, curate the selections or just serve low-brow stuff. The stores are more or less free to market as they wish. They set up wherever there's demand. They create jobs. And because of highway enforcement and stiff penalties, DUIs/fatalities are not significantly higher (and in most cases lower) than those in PA, so MADD has little to complain about there.

As far as tax revenue goes, it would be nice if there were some level of transparency in the figures the PLCB releases pertaining to the actual costs of operation. You're not going to see a true balance sheet that lists ALL the liabilities along with the considerable assets. And of course the opportunities for creating more tax revenue is very significiant.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by erieguy

While its ridiculous that beer can only be bought in distributors, Giant Eagle, and bars, there are beer distributors in all states even though beer is available in that states many stores. The stores simply do not have enough room to offer all of the varieties of beer a distributor does/can. A distributor I frequent has close to I believe 300 different micros and most every popular import/domestic. A grocery/convenience store isn't providing that selection.

A good beer distributor doesn't need a legal oligopoly to stay in business. States without ridiculous alcohol laws still have the sorts of beer stores you are describing.