Mexican War Streets/Allegheny West family friendly? (Pittsburgh, Baldwin: real estate, home)

[Goodjules]

There is still a lot of stereotyping out there. My kids went to a dual language immersion school that was 60% Hispanic. The principal told me of a family was planning to enroll their daughter so she could learn Spanish so "she can speak to the help." I have many other experiences of similar ugly behavior. After living in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood for over 20 years, my eyes were opened to the stereotyping that still exists. Many people see majority black or Hispanic schools and rule them out immediately. Those communities do tend to have more problematic schools, but not every school is bad simply because of its population.

[steindle]

Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl

Pittsburgh's population is (finally) growing and less children are entering public schools. That falls right in line with my previous points. We both know that elementary schools in Pittsburgh are decent, you won't get an argument from me there. Yet less people are willingly sending their kids to them. I'm not even going to address high schools as everyone responds with the, "send the whole city to Allderdice" argument.

So you agree that elementary PPS education is "decent," but you're still generally against them because "less people are willingly sending their kids to them?" That's like working in the boiler room of a ship and knowing definitively that everything is fine there, but still jumping overboard with everyone else when there's a false rumor about the boiler room being on fire.

I stand by my original statement -- the fact that kindergarten enrollment is down 11% is perhaps indicative of some sort of mass hysteria / crisis of perception, but it doesn't mean anything as far as actual quality of education is concerned. Unfortunately, it's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy: The quality of education is not necessarily declining, but parents under that impression jumping ship en masse will cause the quality of education to decline.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl

I have a feeling not a lot of parents will get behind the idea that their kid will automatically get into a good magnet school because a city-data poster crunched some numbers...

Right...it's better to go the ignorant route, don't worry about number and just "know" that it's the "luck of the draw" and the schools mostly suck. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for practical applications of an education. There's a strong "truthiness" aspect to that line of thinking.

The O'Neil piece touched more upon the huge variance of PPS quality, enrollments being down, the failure of the Pittsburgh Promise, and few Pittsburghers themselves believing in the greatness of city schools. I did not get the "schools are actually great it's your fault that no one attends them" vibe that you seem to have got.

What he's saying is that, if you're engaged, informed and make good choices, PPS can be a wonderful school district. The "failure" of the Promise is that it hasn't increased enrollment as some predicted. There's no indication that it's anything more than a problem of perception. This perception of urban schools in general has been built up over the last 50+ years so it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is resistant to change.

Pittsburgh's population is (finally) growing and less children are entering public schools. That falls right in line with my previous points. We both know that elementary schools in Pittsburgh are decent, you won't get an argument from me there. Yet less people are willingly sending their kids to them. I'm not even going to address high schools as everyone responds with the, "send the whole city to Allderdice" argument.

Look, we'll see. The population is growing. Demographically, there's a lot going on which could alter the balance. The cohort which has most rapidly shown an increase within the City isn't having kids yet for the most part. When they do, if a slightly higher percentage than now chooses to remain in the City and utilize PPS, it could have a self-perpetuating positive effect.

FWIW, I'd be happy if my kids went to Allderdice, CAPA, Sci-Tech or Obama at this point, but we're still a ways from that.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Goodjules

There is still a lot of stereotyping out there. My kids went to a dual language immersion school that was 60% Hispanic. The principal told me of a family was planning to enroll their daughter so she could learn Spanish so "she can speak to the help." I have many other experiences of similar ugly behavior. .

Learning a foreign language so that you are able to communicate to your employees seems to be a practical motivation to undertake the effort.

Are there that few non-speakers of English in the SF area, that it really isn't worth effort to learn Spanish for every day use?

[UKyank]

It's actually really easy to change people's minds that the PPS system isn't bad to send your kids to: Surpass the suburban school districts you're competing with in the area in school rankings.

[Aqua Teen Carl]

Originally Posted by steindle

So you agree that elementary PPS education is "decent," but you're still generally against them because "less people are willingly sending their kids to them?" That's like working in the boiler room of a ship and knowing definitively that everything is fine there, but still jumping overboard with everyone else when there's a false rumor about the boiler room being on fire.

I stand by my original statement -- the fact that kindergarten enrollment is down 11% is perhaps indicative of some sort of mass hysteria / crisis of perception, but it doesn't mean anything as far as actual quality of education is concerned. Unfortunately, it's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy: The quality of education is not necessarily declining, but parents under that impression, jumping ship en masse will cause the quality of education to decline.

Whoa there, I am not against city schools. I have never typed that, you made that up. I have given praise to elementary schools in the past on here and I went to city schools and I am now an engineer. Middle school and high school were in fact terrible but it's not like I ever made blanket statements that "all public schools are bad d00d". In fact, I had some high school teachers that were even better than college professors (but more that were terrible unfortunately).

But elementary schools are not the only schools that parents have to worry about. The non-charter/magnet high schools here are terrible and there is plenty to back that up with. The 11% drop isn't due some unfounded mass hysteria about the false perceptions of city schools. If you don't think that kind of continued drop is not indicative of a problem you are merely putting your fingers in your ears and going, "la la la I can't hear you".

Originally Posted by UKyank

It's actually really easy to change people's minds that the PPS system isn't bad to send your kids to: Surpass the suburban school districts you're competing with in the area in school rankings.

+1

[steindle]

Originally Posted by UKyank

It's actually really easy to change people's minds that the PPS system isn't bad to send your kids to: Surpass the suburban school districts you're competing with in the area in school rankings.

All right, several schools within PPS routinely do that.

... What next?

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by steindle

So you agree that elementary PPS education is "decent," but you're still generally against them because "less people are willingly sending their kids to them?" That's like working in the boiler room of a ship and knowing definitively that everything is fine there, but still jumping overboard with everyone else when there's a false rumor about the boiler room being on fire.

I stand by my original statement -- the fact that kindergarten enrollment is down 11% is perhaps indicative of some sort of mass hysteria / crisis of perception, but it doesn't mean anything as far as actual quality of education is concerned. Unfortunately, it's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy: The quality of education is not necessarily declining, but parents under that impression, jumping ship en masse will cause the quality of education to decline.

Exactly my point. You said it better than I could. Sadly, I have found some teachers are part of the problem. My daughter went to one of the best middle schools in our town. (she went to a predominantly Hispanic elementary school) Majority upper middle class white, but with about 25% lower income Hispanic kids. She told me many times of certain teachers taking cell phones away from kids caught using them in class. Guess which kids got their phones returned at the end of the day and which kids got suspended for the infraction? My daughter was suspended often for confronting the teachers on their actions. The assistant principal was trying to change things. When my daughter graduated, the assistant principal told my daughter to keep up the fight and that she was going to make a difference in the world. I'm also sure if you asked those teachers if they treated students differently based on ethnicity, they would swear that they didn't. And they wouldn't be lying. They honestly think they don't have a problem. It's a tough issue that I think will take generations to solve, but I do think we're moving in the right direction.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by steindle

All right, several schools within PPS routinely do that.

... What next?

Capa (& maybe Obama) are the only ones I ever see routinely ranked with the top schools but you have no guarantee that your child will go there compared to say if you live in McCandless you have a 100% chance of you're child going there.

Now this will show my ignorance as I have no children, but say I was gung ho on staying in the city & want my kids to go to Capa, what realistic chance to I have making that happen for sure?

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by UKyank

It's actually really easy to change people's minds that the PPS system isn't bad to send your kids to: Surpass the suburban school districts you're competing with in the area in school rankings.

Even if it were a worthwhile endeavor, which it isn't, that game is rigged. It's like big box, downtown retail, the City can't win that contest, it's an away game.