Why are Pittsburgh's Gas Prices Still so High? (Erie, Scranton: construction, housing)

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by Copanut

I was joking. So we suburbanites are to be restricted on development but not the City? I'm sure there was a lot of green space in Pittsburgh proper back in the day, not so much now. Should development been stopped? Were will people live, on top of each other in high rises?

We've taken a metropolitan area that has strongly declined in population over the past few generations and is only NOW starting to grow modestly again and spread it out like butter over a very vast area (and inefficiently, at that). At what point do we draw an urban growth boundary around a certain area and say "that's far enough" to conserve precious open space for our posterity? In Butler County it's too late for Cranberry Township and Adams Township to have their open space reserved and/or developed responsibly; however, Jackson Township and Forward Township, immediately to the north of Cranberry Township and Adams Township, respectively, don't need to suffer the same fate of being paved over for strip malls, cul-de-sacs, big-box stores, etc.

It would be different if this entire region was growing like gangbusters. It's not. If 1,000 new residents come to the area each year, why would we want 100 of them to settle in the city limits, 300 to settle in inner suburban areas, and 600 to tear down trees to settle in new housing in the outskirts when the city and its surrounding suburbs have TONS of brownfield redevelopment opportunities? What's good for the goose isn't always what's good for the gander. How many people who are destroying open space right now in Jackson Township and Adams Township in Butler County are ex-Cranberry Township residents seeking "more elbow room" and "more open space"? My bet? A LOT. Sure, it all seems like prosperity right now for Cranberry Township, but then what happens when every available developable parcel in the township is built-out? The population will begin to level off and then decline, which means, just as in the CITY, tax rates will be raised to squeeze more money out of residents who remain to upkeep adequate services. In turn, those higher tax rates will send more people packing out of Cranberry Township and into Adams Township, Jackson Township, and, yes, even into Forward Township if this isn't managed well.

Fitting more people in less square mileage is "smart growth". I don't see much of that occurring in Pittsburgh's exurbs. All I see is selfish and ecologically-irresponsible sprawl occurring.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

It would be different if this entire region was growing like gangbusters. It's not. If 1,000 new residents come to the area each year, why would we want 100 of them to settle in the city limits, 300 to settle in inner suburban areas, and 600 to tear down trees to settle in new housing in the outskirts when the city and its surrounding suburbs have TONS of brownfield redevelopment opportunities?

There are a lot of jobs in the outlying areas of the Pittsburgh region, always have been BTW.

A lot of people want to be close if they are working at the Westinghouse or Mylan headquarters, or thousands of other employers.

Not everyone really cares to live in very densely populated areas, not everyone wants to have to petition to city hall on Grant St. to get municipal services completed.

Its like the American Dream, as dreamed by large number of Americans, to form middle class communities and have a little bit of space.

[PghYinzer]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

There are a lot of jobs in the outlying areas of the Pittsburgh region, always have been BTW.

A lot of people want to be close if they are working at the Westinghouse or Mylan headquarters, or thousands of other employers.

Not everyone really cares to live in very densely populated areas, not everyone wants to have to petition to city hall on Grant St. to get municipal services completed.

Its like the American Dream, as dreamed by large number of Americans, to form middle class communities and have a little bit of space.

Back in the day, people had to live in the densely populated areas because they had no choice, or rather it wasn’t a viable option to trek out to the sticks to live, unless you had a farm. Then Brookline type areas grew because people wanted their little bit of space and finally had the option of moving there (streetcars), then Bethel Park when Brookline wasn’t enough space and they had better options (autos), and then Peters to have even more. People are not going to move back to the cities in huge numbers, until the option of living out there is taken away from them. At this point, people are content (and complete alright in being so) as long as they can afford the gas and sacrifice the time for the commutes (for those who don’t work near where they live).

And by taken away from them I do not mean by someone else saying they can’t, but rather by fuel prices rising to the point where it no longer tolerable, or by some other factor that will make the costs more than the benefits or the value of their space. Urban dwellers who rant about sprawl are not going to make people change their mind. Honestly, I am rarely impacted by sprawl, unless I go choose to participate in it. I live and work in the city and as long as I shop and entertain myself in the city, like I usually do, the Murrysvilles, Cranberrys, and Robinsons of the world really don’t bother me that much.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by PghYinzer

At this point, people are content (and complete alright in being so) as long as they can afford the gas and sacrifice the time for the commutes (for those who don’t work near where they live).

It's easier for them to afford because freeways and highways are heavily subsidized by the feds.

[ditchdigger]

Not everyone really cares to live in very densely populated areas, ...

Its like the American Dream, as dreamed by large number of Americans, to form middle class communities and have a little bit of space.

Exactly!

I grew up in Shadyside, lived for a while in one of the older inner-ring suburbs, and (not bragging; I couldn't have afforded to pay somebody to build it, I did it all myself), my above ground pool and the deck around it are larger than the backyards in either of those places. I LIKE my space.

(And this isn't a new house or neighborhood either. It dates to the 50s.)

(Also, today I couldn't afford to buy the house in Shadyside where I grew up either. After it was gutted and rehabbed, it sold for more than twice what we paid for this property.)

At what point do we draw an urban growth boundary around a certain area and say
"that's far enough" to conserve precious open space for our posterity?

We don't. To some of us, having space that's our own is precious enough to make the trade-offs worth it. The much demonized "sprawl" is nothing more than a reflection of people having the freedom to live where they want to, within their means to do so.

Now, my posterity and I are going outside to rake all of our leaves into a big pile and dive into it...

[Copanut]

SSR

So urbanites should dictate public policy to the 'burbs?

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by Copanut

SSR

So urbanites should dictate public policy to the 'burbs?

So suburbanites should dictate public policy to the city?

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by doo dah

So suburbanites should dictate public policy to the city?

Not at all, never said that. The City can flounder on its own.

[PghYinzer]

Neither can exist on their own anymore.

Suburbs rely on their people working in the city, to pay their wage tax while the city relies on suburbanites working in the city to give them $52 a year. However, a very large amount of suburbanites to dine, shop, and entertain themselves in the city each year, and that definitely does have an impact on the city. I am not sure of the outflow of city dwellers to the suburbs for the same reason, but I am sure there is an impact there also.

Luckily this isn’t East/West Germany and we can travel back and forth between the 120+ municipalities to work and shop...

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by PghYinzer

while the city relies on suburbanites working in the city to give them $52 a year

We'll try not to blow it all on one street lamp.