Ferguson protest in Ross park mall Saturday (history, good)

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by that412

When it results in the death of another person, yes, it should warrant at least being publicly examined as potentially having been a crime.

Situations like Mike Brown and Eric Garner, on the other hand, involved "normal" everyday cops doing everyday things. The DA isn't going to upset the apple cart by leaning on the grand jury to bring charges against those guys, because everyone in the force would think "that could be me up there next" and he'd quickly lose his support amongst the union, not to mention make his own work environment potentially more hostile.

Why just if someone dies, should it be publicly examined? There are hundreds of people , maybe thousands, getting roughed up like Mr. Garner was, who didn't die. Isn't assault and battery a serious felony as well, shouldn't all of those police officers also be tried.


Actually this is a matter of, just as you say, normal police activity in the current era. To try individual police officers, just following the general and specific instructions and protocols, for the bad results in unfair.

Its a question of police policy, maybe its time for that to change, but its up to the elected and appointed police chiefs and mayors to answer it.

Unless, of course, the individual cops were acting outside of department policy, like the examples of Caracappa and Eppolito were, sure, try the individual officers. Otherwise, if it is just normal policy business, the individual officers don't seem to have the necessary mens rea to be charged with a crime and to do so seems to be using them as scapegoats.

[norcider]

"To try individual police officers, just following the general and specific instructions and protocols,"
But, he used a choke hold, which is supposed to be a forbidden tactic, so he neglected his training and it was partially responsible for killing the man. There were 3-4 cops on scene, why no taser? Why no other less than lethal tactic? I'd say they didn't follow their training. Maybe if they had the guy would still be alive. The cop in the Garner case should have been indicted given his previous history, he doesn't deserve to wear a badge.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by norcider

"To try individual police officers, just following the general and specific instructions and protocols,"
But, he used a choke hold, which is supposed to be a forbidden tactic, so he neglected his training and it was partially responsible for killing the man. There were 3-4 cops on scene, why no taser? .

I don't think it was really a choke hold at all, if you really can't breathe, you wouldn't be able to holler "I can't breathe".

Besides, his supervisor was right there. If the officer was doing it wrong and truly choking Mr. Garner, that would be the time to correct it.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

I don't think it was really a choke hold at all, if you really can't breathe, you wouldn't be able to holler "I can't breathe".

Besides, his supervisor was right there. If the officer was doing it wrong and truly choking Mr. Garner, that would be the time to correct it.

Choke holds are dangerous even if they don't block breathing completely. The medical examiner said the cause of death was the combination of the choking and the pressure on his chest.

I don't see how the supervisor being there matters. What he did is on video. The ME looked at the video and the body and said the hold killed him.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

Choke holds are dangerous even if they don't block breathing completely. The medical examiner said the cause of death was the combination of the choking and the pressure on his chest.

I don't see how the supervisor being there matters. What he did is on video. The ME looked at the video and the body and said the hold killed him.

The job of a supervisor is to make sure that your charges are performing their duties correctly. If it was an improper hold, or forbidden choke hold, the supervisor has the duty to point it out and correct the officer. Blaming the grunt when the sup was right there and kept silent just seems unfair. The supervisor is at least, if not more culpable, if it is a violation of protocol or even a crime, than the worker.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The job of a supervisor is to make sure that your charges are performing their duties correctly. If it was an improper hold, or forbidden choke hold, the supervisor has the duty to point it out and correct the officer. Blaming the grunt when the sup was right there and kept silent just seems unfair. The supervisor is at least, if not more culpable, if it is a violation of protocol or even a crime, than the worker.

I'd be happy if the supervisor were tried. I don't see how you watch that video and read what has come out from the medical examiner and not think that there is probable cause for a crime and that the lack of any trial is a thing that deserves protest.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

I'd be happy if the supervisor were tried. I don't see how you watch that video and read what has come out from the medical examiner and not think that there is probable cause for a crime and that the lack of any trial is a thing that deserves protest.

I just don't think that the officer meant any harm, there just wasn't any motive on his part. If it came out that he had arrested Garner before, and Garner tried to get him in trouble, or something like that, that would indicate a possible motive.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

I just don't think that the officer meant any harm, there just wasn't any motive on his part. If it came out that he had arrested Garner before, and Garner tried to get him in trouble, or something like that, that would indicate a possible motive.

You don't need a motive to harm. Negligence that causes harm is sufficient.

And it had come out that the officer was previously accused of employing extra-legal tactics on black men. See here.

NYPD Officer Daniel Pantaleo Stripped Of Gun, Badge After Chokehold Death

[gg]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

I don't think it was really a choke hold at all, if you really can't breathe, you wouldn't be able to holler "I can't breathe".

Correct. You don't need to be a doctor to know something that obvious. I think the guy was so out of shape he just suffocated from fat. He really was a load. I feel bad for him and it is sad he died on his 32nd arrest. I don't really have much of an answer.

[norcider]

You can argue all day long what YOU see regarding the hold, but it sure looks to me like a brief choke hold with the cops forearm against his adam's apple. That is a more destructive application than if he were to have used a textbook rear naked choke that is designed to interrupt blood flow to the brain. Sure he was out of shape, it must be his fault he died! It couldn't have been an arrest gone wrong!