What can happen if I remodel without a building permit? (Pittsburgh: rental, homeowners insurance)

[Jorge Campbell]

I am looking to buy a 4-unit house in the City of Pittsburgh to rent out, which means it's classified as commercial for remodeling/building permit purposes. The house has some plumbing and electrical issues (copper pipes have been stolen, minor rewiring needs to be done), and needs some surface renovations (like carpeting, replacing cabinets, patching drywall, painting...). I'll also need an occupancy permit since it is currently in violation status.

I took a look at the BBI website, and they require all work to be done by a registered, licensed general contractor. Right now, I don't have the kind of money to contract most of the stuff out. I have experience and can do electrical, plumbing, hang drywall, etc.

Theoretically, if I were do all the stuff myself inside, what are the chances that I'll get found out when I apply for an occupancy permit? What are the consequences?

[guy2073]

Very good, the city has its own inspectors for HVAC and electric. You better have your paperwork ready for the occupancy inspection. Any uninspected work would quickly raise a flag. Also Allegheny county requires a plumber to do any work on a building that is more than one unit, or a single unit that is not your primary residence.

You can do all your own framing, drywall, flooring, painting, carpentry yourself.

[jea6321]

you will get caught and what will happen is they will make you remove everything and get it redone ( even if your work was perfectly fine) by a licensed plumber/electrician. Not worth the risk and extra cost. If it already had the occupancy permit, it could be a different situation. Unfortunately you have a situation that is hard to bypass.

[ferraris]

I don't follow how he's likely to get caught? When they come for the occupancy permit how will they know the work was done recently by him and not bought that way?

[selltheburgh]

A lot of inspectors drive around looking for people working without permits. I've seen people have to cut out new bathrooms because they tried to get away without getting a permit.

If you have the money to buy a four unit then you should have the money to pay a contractor or get your own contractors license and insurance. Otherwise you were likely to become a slumlord.

[stburr91]

I would never advise people to do work without the required permits, but I will say this, permits are how you inform the government that you have improved your property, and that means higher taxes. The system is somewhat broken that way, it punishes those that invest in their properties, and rewards those that don't. In the case of rental properties, the higher taxes can offset any increase in rent one may get by renovating their units, therefore defeating the purpose of investing in the first place.

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

A lot of inspectors drive around looking for people working without permits. I've seen people have to cut out new bathrooms because they tried to get away without getting a permit.

If you have the money to buy a four unit then you should have the money to pay a contractor or get your own contractors license and insurance. Otherwise you were likely to become a slumlord.

I disagree with you here. The percentage of landlords that improve their properties without permits is very high, and those willing to invest in their properties are generally not slumlords.

[gg]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

I've seen people have to cut out new bathrooms because they tried to get away without getting a permit.

People wonder why there are so many slumlords. With a reassessment in place that will raise your taxes if you improve your properties, to all the building inspectors running around looking to fine someone for improving a property to more. I don't know why people BLAME slumlords really. What would be the point of fixing a place up much? It just doesn't pay.

Many people fix and do things without inspections. Depends on how big the project is. If you are really going to do a lot of work and have a dumpster and so-on, you might want to get the permit and deal with the tons and tons of hoops and ripoff crap that goes along with it. If you are just doing minor work, a little plumbing fix and such, then maybe to discrete. It has been a long time since I rehabbed a city home. I am getting older, so I might deal with the hoops just because I don't want to deal with anything later. I wouldn't get a permit if I was replacing kitchen cabinets or something that little. Don't even know if you need one?

[guy2073]

A lot of work does not require permits, anything that would be public health and safety related and any structural changes will need permitted. The city does not require you to hire a contractor, just a plumber and electrician.

I would not be worried about the city inspectors finding out you don't have a permit, they will usually just shut the job down until you get the permit. The county plumbing inspectors give out large fines and cause problems.

[selltheburgh]

The main times that you would want to get a permit are for structural, electrical or plumbing repairs.

If there is an electrical fire, the inspectors and insurance companies will check to make sure that proper permits were pulled. If they weren't then it is good chance your homeowners insurance will not cover damages.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

The main times that you would want to get a permit are for structural, electrical or plumbing repairs.

If there is an electrical fire, the inspectors and insurance companies will check to make sure that proper permits were pulled. If they weren't then it is good chance your homeowners insurance will not cover damages.

I mean even with that, how do they know that the faulty wiring was done while you owned it? Seems like it's hard to tell the difference between shoddy work from 2010 compared to shoddy work from 1998 for example. Or does that risk just carry over with the new owners? If it's the latter, that's a frightening prospect for a city with so many 100 year old homes.

I do agree that for major work you should get a permit, but there's no way I'm going to pull one to replace the wax seal on a toilet or replace a sink or something like that.