Two pedestrians killed in Oakland (Pittsburgh: moving, automobile, rating)

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by norcider

I agree there are times when there is really no course of action to avoid the unavoidable, those truly are freak accidents. Regarding the two people murdered after getting off of the bus; it sounds as if the driver was not paying attention and probably speeding. I don't generally speed and certainly don't speed in residential and urban areas and I was using the quotes to demonstrate the mindset of the blissfully unaware and selfish driver, not my own thoughts, as was explained by my giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps when one doesn't assume that all drivers speed and don't pay attention, one will be able to look at the other side of the coin and understand pedestrians are not always innocent, don't always pay attention, run out into traffic, should be ticketed, and cause accidents.

In regards to the 2 people, yes it does appear the driver is at fault, and if that's founded, then the driver should suffer the consequences that are put in place.

[Goinback2011]

Where in the article does it say that?

[eschaton]

I don't even know why we are debating who is at fault here. Does finding fault save lives? Even if all people who engage in vehicular manslaughter were prosecuted to the full extent of the law, would it make an appreciable difference in terms of fatalities?

As far as I can see, only improving how cars function (for example, all of them being semi-automated to avoid serious crashes - something which is in the works already) or improving road design is going to make a difference here. Moralizing won't.

[RogersParkTransplant]

Trying very hard not to get sucked into drivers vs. pedestrian animosity here...I do wish to point out that a major source of concern is drivers making a *turn* at an intersection while pedestrians are trying to cross. Drivers have the green light and pedestrians have the walk sign, so determining right-of-way is extremely difficult.

I would suggest that Pittsburgh could put in more left-turn arrow signals, and also more "no right turn on red" signs. I recognize that the narrow streets and hilly terrain make a left-turn lane impractical at many intersections, but surely there are some places where this could be done. Rather than blaming people for carelessness, which is a subjective thing that is difficult to regulate or improve, maybe we could put our energy into infrastructure and looking for ways to make the streets safer. Reducing the situations where the driver has a green light AND the pedestrian has a walk signal at the exact same time might be helpful in this regard.

This is a very sad story, and especially difficult given that a wheelchair was involved, and that it comes so close on the heels of the awful death of the Pitt professor who was riding her bike in Oakland on Friday.

Bicyclist dies after crash with car | Local News - WTAE Home

[erieguy]

Until those semi-automated vehicles exist, everyone needs to pay attention and follow the rules/laws. Drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

I thought to be culpable for "murder" you had to be proven to have had the intent to kill. Stop calling the female SUV driver a "murderer".

No. You just have to have intent to commit a serious crime. Which makes sense if you think about it. Otherwise everybody who beat somebody to death would just say "I have only trying to hurt that person badly, not kill them" or "I was just mugging somebody and shot them by accident."

Perhaps more relevant to this case, some jurisdictions use the term "murder" for behaving in such a way as to demonstrate depraved indifference to human life. I'm not a lawyer, but I think in PA that would be manslaughter, not murder.

I don't think we know enough to say if this was depraved indifference or not, but certainly people have driven so poorly that they have been convicted of murder when they were not trying to kill anybody. This is especially true if the driver was drunk.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by RogersParkTransplant

Trying very hard not to get sucked into drivers vs. pedestrian animosity here...I do wish to point out that a major source of concern is drivers making a *turn* at an intersection while pedestrians are trying to cross. Drivers have the green light and pedestrians have the walk sign, so determining right-of-way is extremely difficult.

This is a pretty easy one - pedestrians have the right of way vs a vehicle making a turn unless there is a specific turning arrow present.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't even know why we are debating who is at fault here. Does finding fault save lives? Even if all people who engage in vehicular manslaughter were prosecuted to the full extent of the law, would it make an appreciable difference in terms of fatalities?

As far as I can see, only improving how cars function (for example, all of them being semi-automated to avoid serious crashes - something which is in the works already) or improving road design is going to make a difference here. Moralizing won't.

Find fault has pretty demonstrably saved lives in some cases. Arresting drunk drivers had a tremendous effect in lowering the number of accidents caused by alcohol. I also don't see how you are going to get a push for improved road design if your average driver doesn't see it as a problem and I think they are most likely to see it as a problem if hitting pedestrians is treated as a serious offense.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by erieguy

Until those semi-automated vehicles exist, everyone needs to pay attention and follow the rules/laws. Drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists.

Yes, that's all well and good, but realistically, some people won't do it, either because they're turds or because they're absentminded. The question is not how do we design systems and policies which account for how humans should act - its how do we design systems which are designed around the way people do act. Given 32,000 people die in automobile accidents annually, and 85% of them are either solely or partially due to driver error, there is clearly a great deal of room for improvement.

[RogersParkTransplant]

Originally Posted by UKyank

This is a pretty easy one - pedestrians have the right of way vs a vehicle making a turn unless there is a specific turning arrow present.

Oh yes, I know...but in the moment, when the car is rushing to make a turn, and there may be oncoming traffic...by "confusion" I didn't mean in the eyes of the law; I meant in the hectic real-world situation where everyone is in a rush. As a pedestrian, every time I have come close to being hit, it has been a car trying to make a turn that really didn't seem to care that I had right of way. More turning arrows would help; that's all I'm saying.