the mon fayette expressway. is it gonna be beneficial or wasteful? (Pittsburgh: employment, upkeep)

[JoeP]

For many cities, this would be waste. However, the regions topography and limited access for has made traveling intra-region very challenging.

Having the eastern portion would provide better access and work as an alternative to the Parkway East.

[WhoIsStanwix?]

Originally Posted by JoeP

For many cities, this would be waste. However, the regions topography and limited access for has made traveling intra-region very challenging.

Having the eastern portion would provide better access and work as an alternative to the Parkway East.

Better access to what, exactly? To the yet-to-be redeveloped depressed Mon Valley towns that are operating on hope of the expressway as a savior? To the airport for a limited number of travelers? This is the part I am struggling to envision. It is not as if there is a new connection to a major employment hub (downtown, Cranberry). I suppose one could say the access to Southpointe will eventually be improved. But otherwise, this is just connecting greenfield to brownfield. This seems like a massive waste of money to appease certain special interests and to fit within the narrow confines that our state regulators allow for spending money earmarked in a certain way.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by WhoIsStanwix?

Better access to what, exactly? To the yet-to-be redeveloped depressed Mon Valley towns that are operating on hope of the expressway as a savior? To the airport for a limited number of travelers? This is the part I am struggling to envision. It is not as if there is a new connection to a major employment hub (downtown, Cranberry). I suppose one could say the access to Southpointe will eventually be improved. But otherwise, this is just connecting greenfield to brownfield. This seems like a massive waste of money to appease certain special interests and to fit within the narrow confines that our state regulators allow for spending money earmarked in a certain way.

I'll play devils advocate. Cranberry did not take off as an employment hub until I 279 N. I do feel like this is a waste of resources though. I really do not think the Mon Valley will ever recover. The same may have been said about Pittsburgh proper though.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I'll play devils advocate. Cranberry did not take off as an employment hub until I 279 N. I do feel like this is a waste of resources though. I really do not think the Mon Valley will ever recover. The same may have been said about Pittsburgh proper though.

Cranberry is also right along the PA Turnpike so that's a big benefit as well. This area does not have enough growth for me to believe the expressway will change the Mon Valley's fortunes.

[Geeo]

The Beaver Valley Expressway (now I-376) was also envisioned as the savior for Beaver and Lawrence Counties in the 1960s. Took years to plan and build, then the state ran out of money in the early 70s and it ended at Chippewa for a couple decades. It was not designated an interstate at the time. Was finally finished as a toll road built by the Turnpike Commission from Chippewa to New Castle in the 80s or 90s.

This road did nothing to reverse the decline of towns like Beaver Falls, New Castle, Aliquippa, New Brighton, or Rochester. There is some development, but it's near the interchanges and away from these towns. It's mostly gas stations and big box stores. I expect the same for the Mon Valley - maybe some Sheetz gas stations at the exit ramps. It's not going to cause an industrial boom in McKeesport or Duquesne (or Monessen, Donoroa, or Charleroi).

The one big project that is adjacent to 376 is the Shell ethane cracker that is now under construction. The highway may have played a part, but Shell also wanted river and rail access, so the three came together at that point on the Ohio River.

[JoeP]

Better access to what, exactly? To the yet-to-be redeveloped depressed Mon Valley towns that are operating on hope of the expressway as a savior?

You're inserting words. Where did I remotely suggesting any savior? I spoke to the challenge of traveling within the region. People live in these places you know. People go from many point As to many different point Bs.

[Bazzwell]

As an easier path to get around, yes. To gain any significant improvement in the Mon Valley's fortunes, no.

It would aid in improving one's lot if the goal is to get employment outside of the confines of the valley and not have to take seven dogpaths, forty-two bridges (ten of which would be closed at any given time) and an untold number of red lights to do so.

But to expect any kind of reversal of fortunes, forget it. I've been around the valley since I was a child, since the first stage of the expressway was nothing more than a way to make the trip between Coal Center and Elco. Or to use the unfinished (at the time) portion that ended before the toll booths at I-70 as a drag strip. Not that I ever personally was involved in any such thing .

I watched the rest of it being built outside of California, on in to Uniontown, down to Large. Everybody said "This is it!, we're saved!". Aside from a handful of small factories built in California, nothing, all this time, all the years, nothing.

One story, a true one, an old one. At one time the toll to get in (or out) of California was .50 cents for cars, a bit more for trucks. Officials were approached by a large trucking company looking to perhaps build a terminal off the Cal exit, running hundreds of trucks in and out most every day. Good jobs indeed. They asked officials if they'd consider a waiver of the toll fees as an incentive. Everybody that could have done something did.... nothing. The terminal went elsewhere. To add some insult, a few months later the toll rose to .75 cents for cars, again, a bit more for trucks. Progress......right.

[szug-bot]

Originally Posted by Bazzwell

One story, a true one, an old one. At one time the toll to get in (or out) of California was .50 cents for cars, a bit more for trucks. Officials were approached by a large trucking company looking to perhaps build a terminal off the Cal exit, running hundreds of trucks in and out most every day. Good jobs indeed. They asked officials if they'd consider a waiver of the toll fees as an incentive. Everybody that could have done something did.... nothing. The terminal went elsewhere. To add some insult, a few months later the toll rose to .75 cents for cars, again, a bit more for trucks. Progress......right.

Trucks wreak damage to roads - would "a bit more" than 50 cents have killed their business? I'd have to hear the other side for that one.

I guess in the end, they lost the potential for jobs and location of that business - but where did this company decide to put their terminal? If they got highway access without tolls, what kinds of problems are they possibly causing on that road (pavement damage, traffic, obstructions, noise/air pollution?).

There might be more to this story than their not getting a waiver on reasonable toll.

I am more optimistic about any benefit to be had from the Expressway. OK, growth to our metro area is slow - but the expressway can help open up affordable middle class homes to people willing to commute to Monroeville or other job centers (West Mifflin, Pittsburgh, etc.).

“You build it and they will come is a true axiom,” said Robert Baum, who operates a real estate business in McKeesport. “We need an economic booster now, and the Mon-Fayette Expressway is it.”

I think finishing the last leg to Monroeville is beneficial. But I am glad its extension to Pittsburgh was denied by Ravenstahl. Everything is speculation, but even in the future, there still may never be THAT many people commuting from the Steel Valley to Oakland and Downtown. But at least there is an arterial connection.

[WhoIsStanwix?]

Originally Posted by JoeP

You're inserting words. Where did I remotely suggesting any savior? I spoke to the challenge of traveling within the region. People live in these places you know. People go from many point As to many different point Bs.

My apologies, I commandeered your post as a jumping-off point for what is a pet peeve of mine - the people lobbying hardest for this road are using the argument that Robert Baum makes, as quoted by szug-bot. It seems there is this false sense of hope that the expressway will revitalize depressed areas. Even if it does provide an economic spark, the development seen is more likely to be greenfield development instead of brownfield repurposing and revitalizing. We have enough clear-cut land to rebuild without cutting down more wooded land.

As eschaton (and others?) often state - the traffic projections used to justify many new highways, especially this one, are horrifically outdated by the time the project breaks ground.

[Craziaskowboi]

Apparently it's going to be inevitable.