Market Square removing public seating outside of lunch hours (Pittsburgh: home, college)

[tyovan4]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

Name one city with a large centralized square that is devoid of "undesirable" people. Name one.

Zocalo, Mexico City.
Rynek Glowny, Krakow.
Trafalgar Square, London.
Grote Markt, Brussels.

Just a list from personal experiences.

[sealie]

Doesn't have to be devoid. Needs to not be an overwhelming percentage. Tyovan said that already but people keep putting words in his mouth to make him easier to argue with.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by tyovan4

Zocalo, Mexico City.
Rynek Glowny, Krakow.
Trafalgar Square, London.
Grote Markt, Brussels.

Just a list from personal experiences.

I should have specified US cities. The poor and destitute are hidden from European societies. You will not see the homeless congregating in public squares because they are hidden on the outskirts of the city. Never been to Mexico City.

[xdv8]

Originally Posted by sealie

Something to consider: the people shrugging and saying this is NBD are almost exclusively young to young-middle-age males. Women and older men stay away from these situations. If you want to stop suburban flight, women need to feel safe. They won't have this problem down in soulless Southpointe.

Stop suburban flight from the restaurants downtown?Because I'm pretty sure downtown Pittsburgh has more and more residents of all age and gender despite Market Sq. undesirables.

I see a lot of young women in pijamas walking their dogs downtown, they are clearly residents. People live in whitewashed suburban bunkers for a lot of reasons, but undesirables in Market Square isn't even on the list.

[tyovan4]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I wonder if the City could partner with CMU to have police drones constantly flying about Market Square. You probably couldn't use them to catch people in the act, but would quickly amass a lot of video evidence of known drug dealers which could be used in charges against them.

Why wouldn't just simply mounting cameras to the existing lamp-posts be enough?

Originally Posted by sealie

Doesn't have to be devoid. Needs to not be an overwhelming percentage. Tyovan said that already but people keep putting words in his mouth to make him easier to argue with.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

I should have specified US cities. The poor and destitute are hidden from European societies. You will not see the homeless congregating in public squares because they are hidden on the outskirts of the city. Never been to Mexico City.

They weren't hidden in Prague. Or certainly not in Belgrade.

Ok, if you want to talk US cities - how about the National Mall in DC?
Or even locally - how about Point State Park? Or next door to Market Sq at the big square at PPG Place? Or the square at Southside Works?

Its possible to keep these places safe. It just requires an active security presence - not a hands-off approach as the police are taking at Market Square. SSW and PPG squares are actively patrolled. As is Point State Park. A lot of these issues could be avoided at Market Square if the cops would just get out of their car and walk around the Square randomly... but if they're just doing paperwork or playing on their phone and sitting in their car at a set point, their presence isn't a deterrent.

[Debbie1125]

I visit Pittsburgh a few times a year, and always make it a point to go to Market Square to sit at one of the tables.


This is a bad idea.

[wpipkins2]

PPG and SSW are privately owned and patrolled. Point Park is a national park and not connected to transportation networks. Drug dealers need a place to hide and blend in. This is why a detective is alot more productive than a beat cop. Both would be ideal though.

[tyovan4]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

PPG and SSW are privately owned and patrolled. Point Park is a national park and not connected to transportation networks. Drug dealers need a place to hide and blend in. This is why a detective is alot more productive than a beat cop. Both would be ideal though.

Exactly - how is it that private security, without arrest powers, can keep PPG and SSW safe and drama-free?
Imagine if that City cop bothered to patrol Market Square. You'd see the exact same result.

And Point State Park is a state park. Patrolled by one ranger. And it has a heck of a lot of seating options, including those that are much more isolated and secluded (the ones with bushes on either side of the path) than Market Square.

It seems as if many people are implying that getting the undesirable folks out of Market Square would be incredibly tough. I'm implying it's simply a matter of an iota of political will to order that cop to stop sitting on his butt in his car and patrol the darn square. It'd then be as peaceful, welcoming and safe as any of the above-mentioned locations.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by tyovan4

Why wouldn't just simply mounting cameras to the existing lamp-posts be enough?

It would, but I like the active surveillance aspect of drones. Some people would be skeeved out I guess, but less than would be if there was a constant police presence.

Originally Posted by tyovan4

It seems as if many people are implying that getting the undesirable folks out of Market Square would be incredibly tough. I'm implying it's simply a matter of an iota of political will to order that cop to stop sitting on his butt in his car and patrol the darn square. It'd then be as peaceful, welcoming and safe as any of the above-mentioned locations.

I don't think anyone on the forum disagrees that you should stop open-air drug deals and public drunkenness in Market Square. Where people do disagree is with the idea that you should sweep away all of the "undesirables" merely because they may make potential customers of higher-end restaurants uncomfortable. The square is public property, and everyone has a right to be there - even if they're unwashed and mentally ill.

[gg]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

As far as homeless people go, let them be. I frequent downtown and Market Square and I do not feel threatened by their presence. The dining establishments have dedicated outdoor seating and this is not used by the underbelly of society. This is the center of a large city and most people visiting from other large cities will turn a blind eye to it. That is part of city life. Name one city with a large centralized square that is devoid of "undesirable" people. Name one.

Keep in mind you are a HUGE 6'+ male, not a 5' woman. We need to consider all people, not just big males like you and I. I don't feel threatened in the least, but I do worry about older people, woman, young kids and so-on. That is a different story than the world you and I enjoy.