The Pittsburgh Conundrum (Liberty, Highland Park, Nixon: real estate, 2015, apartments)

[Port Pitt Ash]

Originally Posted by Ruger357

I don't think the suggestion is to become the next Silicon Valley, but we could become more like Minneapolis, charlotte, Raleigh or Nashville. I think growth is always better than stagnation or decline. Don't you agree? Change is really the law of life.

Why?

I've been to Nashville, Minneapolis, in the Raleigh metro, and lived briefly in Charlotte. Outside of better weather & number of quality jobs I much prefer Pittsburgh on just about every level (race relations & dating options beyond college notwithstanding).

Pittsburgh has done a great job of returning to a desirable place to live and has done stagnation sublimely. Growth for growth sake brings good things, but mainly higher costs and downsides. Just ask the Pittsburgh folks who've gone to Philly, D.C., and/or Boston only to return.

As the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it.

From my point of view the biggest problem with Pittsburgh today isn't the city, but everyone who wants to move there and force this low-key area to become something it's not.



Originally Posted by Ruger357

Nearly 60 percent of the population makes less than 20 dollars an hour.

In a city where you can get by on $10/hr & still have many amenities rivaling what you get with cities that are much larger at your fingertips? There is such a thing as the "poor, but happy" lifestyle, which Pittsburgh has always excelled at.

Obviously this assumes, in general terms, you're white or a minority in a professional field. Segregation has been an issue & working class blacks have always gotten a raw deal in that city.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by Paul2421

i agree with your points but Millvale and Ingomar? wtf are you talking about? ingomar is an upper middle class area and millvale will arrive shortly if it hasn't already. it is already stealing thunder from places in the city. ultimately though what pittsburgh needs is more larger employers to enter the area. this will solve the wage and population problems.

I'm with you on Ingomar, great little area with some high end values. Not quite so sure on Millvale, the housing stock is not the greatest IMHO. Biz district has seen better days.

[Paul2421]

Originally Posted by Copanut

I'm with you on Ingomar, great little area with some high end values. Not quite so sure on Millvale, the housing stock is not the greatest IMHO. Biz district has seen better days.

i agree with you but look at the hype on social media with the upcoming "pittsburgh" food truck park. they have two very popular breweries as well. the stigma is definitely not there for younger people. an artisan salt shop is opening. can't really deny the hype is there but yeah the housing definitely leaves something to be desired but it is not too much different than upper l'ville. seems like young people will suffer with subpar housing in preference of access to amenities. some have no desire to keep their house, yard, etc. aesthetically pleasing.

[Copanut]

I should probably take a drive through there. Years ago I frequented a camera repair shop that was part of a very active business district next to a bank. Both are long gone. And anytime I would stop at the liquor store there it was always dinner and a show. Always a colorful cast of characters outside the store. Hope it rebounds, definitely a good location. I do believe the first sign you see is Welcome to Millvale, Gateway to the North. Maybe they should change that to the Great White North.

[Port Pitt Ash]

Originally Posted by Paul2421

seems like young people will suffer with subpar housing in preference of access to amenities. some have no desire to keep their house, yard, etc. aesthetically pleasing.

Bingo. Except nobody's suffering. Most of my generation can't/won't fix things and thinks of their home as a place to sleep, not something to take excessive pride in keeping up.

There's a big divide between the previous generations desire for things and our focus on experience.

[eschaton]

Within the confines of the existing capitalist system, there is basically no answer to the problems of the metro as a whole.

Basically, in the modern U.S., an area generates wealth and creates jobs by one of three ways.

1. Innovation leading to genuine productivity growth. This depends upon people at the top of the education/income scale. It's also become increasingly consolidated in urban areas and large metropolitan areas. And given the income distribution of the country is getting worse and worse, there's basically no "trickle down."

2. Stealing economic growth from elsewhere. This is fundamentally how the Sun Belt got its start. Wages were lower, and business-friendly regulations were put in place, to entice employers to relocate from the Northeast/Midwest (or to have foreign companies looking to move to the U.S. choose these areas. This can help local economies, but it doesn't help the net growth of the economy as a whole. This also leads to the odd situation that people relocate from places with high wages to ones with low ones, which was the opposite of how the U.S. used to work, as the historic norm was that workers followed the higher wages in places with labor shortages (a recent, anomalous example of this was North Dakota's oil boom).

3. Economic growth built off of population growth. just by virtue of people being in an area, service employment is needed. Everything from low-wage retail work to middle-wage teachers and high-income doctors. But this type of economic growth can never kick an area into high gear, as without an exportable good/service, there's really no demand for net domestic migrants. And if a metro gets into a situation where its population is decreasing, it's even worse.

Originally Posted by gladhands

Honest answer? There's no reason for those towns to exist. Sometimes, people need to come out of the wilderness. Black people migrated en masse out of the South and then back. There's no saving those towns, and we shouldn't be expected to try.

While this is true, it's also the case that none of those black belt towns, to my knowledge, is completely gone. They are much diminished, but didn't evolve into ghost towns.

Ghost towns were mostly a 19th century phenomena which tailed a bit into the early 20th century. Settlements just aren't abandoned any longer unless the land is taken via eminent domain or there is some natural disaster. The state government did everything it could to empty out Centralia after the mines caught fire, and a handful of people still live there today.

[Ruger357]

Originally Posted by Port Pitt Ash

Why?

I've been to Nashville, Minneapolis, in the Raleigh metro, and lived briefly in Charlotte. Outside of better weather & number of quality jobs I much prefer Pittsburgh on just about every level (race relations & dating options beyond college notwithstanding).

Pittsburgh has done a great job of returning to a desirable place to live and has done stagnation sublimely. Growth for growth sake brings good things, but mainly higher costs and downsides. Just ask the Pittsburgh folks who've gone to Philly, D.C., and/or Boston only to return.

As the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it.

From my point of view the biggest problem with Pittsburgh today isn't the city, but everyone who wants to move there and force this low-key area to become something it's not.



In a city where you can get by on $10/hr & still have many amenities rivaling what you get with cities that are much larger at your fingertips? There is such a thing as the "poor, but happy" lifestyle, which Pittsburgh has always excelled at.

Obviously this assumes, in general terms, you're white or a minority in a professional field. Segregation has been an issue & working class blacks have always gotten a raw deal in that city.

So you believe Pittsburgh is fine the way it is? So why does the region continue to decline and businesses choose not come here? If you claim it to be desirable. Don't people move to desirable places?

Is it better to have tax increases in a declining area? How is that not broken?

I am just having a hard time understanding how what you say is going to convince somebody it is a great place to move to, find a job and start a family. Does the poor but happy lifestyle message really work?

[Ruger357]

Fort Pitt ash,

If you are hinting on the Pittsburgh slogan as the "Poor, but happy lifestyle" the region is really in big trouble. Ask the mon valley voters or anybody else in the rust belt or Pittsburgh how the poor but happy lifestyle works. It was quite evident how most feel looking back at election 2016.

Excelling at that lifestyle is not a positive thing.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by Ruger357

Fort Pitt ash,

If you are hinting on the Pittsburgh slogan as the "Poor, but happy lifestyle" the region is really in big trouble. Ask the mon valley voters or anybody else in the rust belt or Pittsburgh how the poor but happy lifestyle works. It was quite evident how most feel looking back at election 2016.

Excelling at that lifestyle is not a positive thing.

I've heard people joke about it as "Pittsburgh Rich." There are people around Pittsburgh who make less than $50K and who own homes with mortgages that cost less than the rent for a one bedroom apartment. You can live a nice, simple, frugal life in Pittsburgh, and many people do.

[Ruger357]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

I've heard people joke about it as "Pittsburgh Rich." There are people around Pittsburgh who make less than $50K and who own homes with mortgages that cost less than the rent for a one bedroom apartment. You can live a nice, simple, frugal life in Pittsburgh, and many people do.

Again I think you need to ask those in the mon valley or the Pittsburgh area in general how the simple frugal life is going. That is a selling point to somebody who is looking to retire not build a life or career. Again if that worked we wouldn't be on here talking about saving the mon valley and population decline wouldn't be an issue.

For some reason I don't see businesses using those terms to attract outsiders to relocate for work. Why buy a pinto when you can have a mustang somewhere else? That's pretty much what you are telling. Pittsburgh rich is probably poor to the groups you are targeting with that label. It hasn't worked. If it has we wouldn't be discussing it right now