What don't you like about Pittsburgh? (Lawrenceville, Penn: insurance, refrigerator, new construction)

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by scrapp

To be fair, there are also historic materials and craftmanship that you wouldn't want anymore, even if you were willing to pay for it. Lead paint and lead water pipes are historic. Tube/knob wiring is historic. Single pane windows are historic. Building with minimal or no insulation is historic. Asbestos is historic and look at the trouble that has caused (e.g. the Schenley High building).

Many of the older homes I've been in (including my own) have non-flat plaster walls and window and door frames that do not meet in proper right angles or are not actually level.

Yeah -- we call that character...

[By~Tor]

OFF TOPIC NOTE: "Hey - - - someone throw me a whole lotta' rep points, eh?...."

[BrianTH]

By the way, I kind of like knob and tube wiring.

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by Tallysmom

Yeah -- we call that character...

LOL! This is true. My own "historic" house has several rooms that aren't even close to square or rectangular. It's been interesting trying to make furniture fit in corners and so forth.

But that's also one of the things I love about my house, and I wouldn't trade it for a new build if you paid me.

I'm not the kind of person who is comfortable living in a house that looks just like every other house in my neighborhood, or in a neighborhood where everything is perfect and manicured and just alike. That kind of life makes me feel isolated and squashed. Probably the number 1 reason why I like Pittsburgh so much is that it's almost a "junk store" of a city, where everything is unique and there's a funny surprise (good or bad) over every hill and down every narrow cobblestone street. I have an eccentric soul, and Pittsburgh is an eccentric city. I felt it from the very first day I ever saw the city - crossing the Ft. Pitt bridge and seeing all the glittering lights, and then looking out across the water at all of the cool old houses up and down the hillsides, each one completely different from the next and an unpolished gem in it's own right. And the fancy gothic architecture in Oakland, and the 5th Avenue mansions, and the Harry Potter houses in Shadyside. I could go on and on...

You know, someone here keeps talking about Scottsdale as a model city. Well, I've been to Scottsdale, and it's clean and sunny and upscale and everything, but frankly I would die if I had to live there. Or at least my soul would wither and die. Where are the gothic churches? Where are the fancy old Painted Ladies, each one clothed in a different bright raiment and crowned with eccentric spires and turrets? Where are the Tudors and the European stone houses with the columns out front? Every house in Scottsdale is perfectly neutral colored so as not to offend anyone, and built by the same builder who built every house within 25 miles, from the same floor plan, with a perfect green lawn, and 2.5 kids and an SUV and a dog, and hidden behind a security gate so none of those "undesirable" people can get in and spoil the carefully manicured conformity. (Ok, I exaggerate cruelly, but you get my point.) Ugh, ugh, ugh. It's not for me. Even the row houses here, which are all alike on a block, at least have some character inside.

But you know what? That's what's so great about America. People who have Scottsdale souls can move to Scottsdale, and people who have Pittsburgh souls can move to Pittsburgh. It's not about who's "right" - we're all right, as long as we're in a place that matches who we are inside and where we are happy living.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

On the other hand, are you disputing that there are also a large number of people who like to live in historic homes? Speaking as such a person, I am fully aware of the downsides, but I prefer them anyway for other reasons.

What I am saying is that I believe the chief selling point of the neighborhoods we are discussing are their walkability and close proximity to our job centers, retail areas, and recreation areas rather than the historic craftsmanship/material of the houses themselves.

I don't deny that the craftsmanship/material is a factor, but based on my own situation and based on discussions with my coworkers and Squirrel Hill neighbors I don't think it is as dominating a factor as the ones I listed above for most people.

I view all this more as an attribute of where we live rather than as a competitive advantage or disadvantage. As you say, it depends on tastes.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

By the way, I kind of like knob and tube wiring.

why?

It is non-standard, difficult to insure, hard to work on, undersized for today's electrical loads, not safe (no ground protection, often uses a switched neutral), often improperly spliced into more modern wiring, and a fire hazard if you put insulation on top of it. Also, electricians are no longer trained to work on it in technical school anymore.

If you are still thinking of buying a house and the house has this kind of wiring, you should definitely either insist that the previous owner have it removed or give you a big price break so you can hire someone yourself to do the work. And make sure the electrical work is done and all the plaster is repaired before moving in because this kind of work makes a mess.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by scrapp

What I am saying is that I believe the chief selling point of the neighborhoods we are discussing are their walkability and close proximity to our job centers, retail areas, and recreation areas rather than the historic craftsmanship/material of the houses themselves.

I don't deny that the craftsmanship/material is a factor, but based on my own situation and based on discussions with my coworkers and Squirrel Hill neighbors I don't think it is as dominating a factor as the ones I listed above for most people.

Well, I think we agree that all of these things are factors in the appeal of historic neighborhoods. And I would also agree that things like "walkability" and proximity to other attractions may be a bit more universal in their appeal, although I also think those virtues are dependent on things like the local population density, which in turn has implications for things like yard size.

But I am still not sure where all that gets us. The fact is that there are in fact many people who just like historic homes, on top of whatever other virtues historic neighborhoods may have. For that matter, there are people who like historic homes but also prefer more suburban or rural settings. So, a market for these homes does exist, and it is at least somewhat independent of the market for homes in walkable and well-located neighborhoods, of course with a lot of overlap between the two.

I view all this more as an attribute of where we live rather than as a competitive advantage or disadvantage. As you say, it depends on tastes.

It seems to me that you tend to view this as a mere attribute because you are not particularly fond of historic homes. But imagine now you were one of those people who does prefer historic homes. A relatively large supply of such homes in the Pittsburgh market becomes an advantage to this hypothetical you with different tastes, even though it is not much of an advantage for the real you given your actual tastes.

Now, ordinarily this difference in tastes would not matter much in the long run when determining the comparative advantages of different localities, because each locality over time could simply build whatever homes anyone in the market wanted. But historic homes are different in that it simply isn't possible to increase the local supply of such homes, even if the demand exists. Indeed, the supply of such homes is fundamentally a one-way street: you can tear them down, but you can't get them back once they are gone.

So, a relatively large supply of historic homes gives a city a comparative advantage which other cities cannot match. Again, this may not be important to all or even most people. But if it is important to even some people, it becomes a comparative advantage for the locality as a whole.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by scrapp

why?

It is non-standard, difficult to insure, hard to work on, undersized for today's electrical loads, not safe (no ground protection, often uses a switched neutral), often improperly spliced into more modern wiring, and a fire hazard if you put insulation on top of it. Also, electricians are no longer trained to work on it in technical school anymore.

There are safety factors on the other side, actually. Because of the separation between the load-carrying wires, they can carry a greater load without risk of fire, and there is less risk of shorts. The way they run through joists reduces the risk of nail punctures, and the porcelain parts should last more or less forever. But I agree the lack of a ground and neutral-switching are drawbacks, and you do have to know what you are doing so you don't overload or insulate it.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Well, I think we agree that all of these things are factors in the appeal of historic neighborhoods. And I would also agree that things like "walkability" and proximity to other attractions may be a bit more universal in their appeal...

So, a relatively large supply of historic homes gives a city a comparative advantage which other cities cannot match. Again, this may not be important to all or even most people. But if it is important to even some people, it becomes a comparative advantage for the locality as a whole.

Yes, if you define it that way then I agree that it is a comparative advantage for the locality as a whole. But if is actually not that important to most people, then it is a relatively minor advantage compared to factors that are "more universal" in their appeal...

[hildi200]

I for one loved the beuty of Pittsburgh and some of the old houses but did not liked them once I was inside. My own personal preference. I saw about 40 old houses around Squirrell Hill (while on the market for buying a home) and the floorplans and the general feel wasn't for me unless it was completely renovated and very expensive!

So we ended up deciding for Summerset at Frick Park... gorgeous houses traditional but new! (expensive too... )

I do realize that not everyone is like this and some people love the historic homes which are gorgeous but generallly need work and neither me or my husband are good at fixing things! LOL.