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By the way, to my knowledge the Census Bureau regions have no special status in US law. Generally, the mission of the Census Bureau is to conduct the Census, which is mandated in the Constitution for the purpose of determining the allocation of Representatives among the states.
Again, this sounds to me like an indictment of the term Northeast.
Okay then.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
But then why would structure matter at all to this issue? If it was a function of culture, then I could see someone arguing it was relevant to figuring out the region in which a city was located. But if it is not connected to culture, then what relevance does it have?
Because a city has something to do with its structure. Indianapolis looks significantly different than Pittsburgh which looks different than Atlanta which looks than Phoenix which looks different than Seattle.Personally, my first concern with visiting a city is seeing and experiencing the city itself. The Eastern cities, while not synonymous with each other has a general style that is generally different than the Midwest which is generally different than the South, etc. I think the actual physical structure of the city is far more important in defining the city's character than whether or not it's inhabitants happen to be political liberal or not.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
I think if you went to Cleveland in the early 20th century, the similarities would be more apparent.
Well I've seen enough pictures.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
I'm not sure about that. The older maps I have show that the rowhouse areas in places like Lawrenceville and the South Side had already been built up by then.
Similarly, the rowhouses in places like Philly and Baltimore date as far back as colonial times.
All the more evidence in my mind for Pittsburgh being Eastern.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
I just checked. Northeast and East Coast together have 25 votes. Appalachian and Northeast and Appalachian have 17 votes. That doesn't strike me as definitive proof that Pittsburgh isn't Appalachian--incidentally, as I noted way above, I think in this list the best answer is Northeast and Appalachia. But see below (I understand why there is some reluctance to identify Pittsburgh as Appalachian).
Like I said, over 80% of Pittsburghers consider themselves some form of Northeastern. That strikes me as pretty convincing that Pittsburgh is Northeastern, seeing that the less than 20% constitute 1 vote for Northern, 2 votes for Midwestern and 5 votes for Appalachian.
BTW, I haven't been arguing that Pittsburgh isn't Appalachian, I voted for Northeast and Appalachia!
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
Personally, I don't think Pittsburgh is either East Coast or Midwest. Again, I think it is in its own region between the East Coast and the Great Lakes.
By the way, I am gathering a lot of people don't like "Appalachian", and to be fair I would agree that the southwest half or so of Appalachia is a different region then the northeast half of Appalachia, where Pittsburgh is located. So another possibility would be to define the region as "the Allegheny Region", since the Allegheny Plateau and the Allegheny Mountains are more or less coextensive with the Pittsburgh Tri-State, the Pittsburgh dialect region, and so on.
I can't say that I'm in great disagreement that Pittsburgh is largely it's own region. I just happen to believe that it shares enough qualities with the Northeastern state in which it happens to be located, to not remove it of that designation.
And we can find many businesses that consider Pittsburgh Northeaster, East Coast even a few that consider us Midwest. But I said U.S. Census Bureau, who better to define a region of population? Based on this fact, and the idea that there is little to truly unite the Northeast, I do believe the burden of proof is on you to prove this wrong. The Northeast is an arbitrary term, so fight to redefine it by fighting the ones who created it! If you really wanted to be specific about what areas are truly united, there would be no Northeast!
HA... the US Census Bureau gets alot of things wrong on which is is an authority. Somehow, I highly doubt that they are infallible on something which they are not an authority on. The Northeast is an arbitrary term... and arbitrary geographic terms. Lines on a map rarely account for the reality on the ground, and that's what we are talking about. I fear that your thinking might be too confined by what you see in an Atlas.
First off, Pennsylvania isn't even always placed in the Northeast to begin with. Regional breakdowns which include what is called the "Mid-Atlantic" region always place PA there. I find this definition to be equally inaccurate, as it runs off the standard assumption that the state of PA somehow ends just east of Philadelphia.
In fact, now that I am reading this, the U.S. Census Bureau actually places PA in the Mid-Atlantic region... so much for your trump card.
The Census recognizes 9 U.S. regions:
New England
Mid-Atlantic
South Atlantic
E South Central
W South Central
E North Central
W North Central
Pacific
Mountain
Where is this "Northeast" that you speak of?
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So what? I never said Pittsburgh's structure was a function of its culture. In fact, I never said it was culture that defined whether a city was Northeastern, Midwestern or West Coast. Try telling someone from San Francisco he is not from the West Coast because his culture isn't like LA's. Cleveland was founded only decades after Pittsburgh, but I don't think the architecture is much alike. Plus, most of Pittsburgh's rows were built in the early part of the century--weren't most U.S. cities around during that time? Yet, the Mid-Atlantic has the vast majority of them in the U.S.
There are plenty of people in San Fran who consider themselves to live in "Pacific Northwest" apart from L.A. And in cultural terms, they would be correct.
As for the row houses, insignificant, and they were largely a function of lack of space, based on constraining topography. Not an attempt to copy the Northeast. Pittsburgh more grandiose architecture, such as the Cathedral of Learning, the Mellon Institute, etc is also largely a function of historical accident. It wasn't made to copy other cities, so much as the money was there, and unlike Cleveland, et al, Pittsburgh was lucky enough to have millionaires who actually wanted to invest in the community.
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Maybe you missed it, but there was a poll on this thread...it included the options: Northeast, Midwest, Appalachia, Northeast and Appalachia, North, East Coast. Most people say Northeast or some form of Northeast. Someone clearly could have written in Tri-State area, but so far only you have.
Maybe you missed it. This is a discussion forum. We have every right to disagree with the options presented and offer alternative theories if we can back our ideas up.
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I don't know what you're trying to do...you can continue to debunk the similarities I've offered between Pittsburgh and the East Coast, but I haven't actually seen much positive support for Pittsburgh as a Midwest city. The most anyone has come up with is: Pittsburgh is economically liberal and socially conservative--therefore it must be Midwestern!
Well, since most of this fictitious "Northeast" is economically and socially liberal, its a start. Politics reflect attitudes and attitudes reflect histories and identities. If Pittsburgh is more like the Midwest (which also doesn't exist according to the Census) politically, well then chances are there is something to that. You're point about Birmingham is laughable, since historically Pittsburgh and Birmingham have little connection to one another, except what remained of the steel industry in the US that left Pittsburgh ended up there.
By the way, to my knowledge the Census Bureau regions have no special status in US law. Generally, the mission of the Census Bureau is to conduct the Census, which is mandated in the Constitution for the purpose of determining the allocation of Representatives among the states.
That's fine, but who then decides what is Northeastern and what is not? And more importantly, which few have ever answered: What defines the Northeast as such?
Because a city has something to do with its structure. Indianapolis looks significantly different than Pittsburgh which looks different than Atlanta which looks than Phoenix which looks different than Seattle.Personally, my first concern with visiting a city is seeing and experiencing the city itself. The Eastern cities, while not synonymous with each other has a general style that is generally different than the Midwest which is generally different than the South, etc. I think the actual physical structure of the city is far more important in defining the city's character than whether or not it's inhabitants happen to be political liberal or not.
You make a good case for structure being relevant to the character of an individual city. But this isn't much of a case for using structure to define regions.
Incidentally, if you know what to look for, there are actually a lot of similarities between Pittsburgh's late-Victorian and early-20th century neighborhoods and neighborhoods from a similar time across the country, including much of the Midwest, California, and the Pacific Northwest. For example, you will see a lot of Queen Anne, American Foursquares, and Bungalows in these Pittsburgh neighborhoods, just as you would in these other places. The big difference is that unlike in most of those other places, brick construction was much more popular than wood framing in Pittsburgh. That is in part because there were a lot of local brickworks in Pittsburgh (thanks to the combination of rivers and coal), and also the fact that the Central and Eastern European immigrants coming to Pittsburgh in that era were more accustomed to brick.
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All the more evidence in my mind for Pittsburgh being Eastern.
Well, Pittsburgh's rowhouses mostly don't date back to colonial times. Basically they were built for working class migrants (domestic and international) when Pittsburgh started to boom in the late-19th century. But people were building rowhouses in places like Philly and Baltimore when Pittsburgh was still a frontier town.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
Like I said, over 80% of Pittsburghers consider themselves some form of Northeastern. That strikes me as pretty convincing that Pittsburgh is Northeastern, seeing that the less than 20% constitute 1 vote for Northern, 2 votes for Midwestern and 5 votes for Appalachian.
BTW, I haven't been arguing that Pittsburgh isn't Appalachian, I voted for Northeast and Appalachia!
Well, then we answered the same. So apparently as worded this poll doesn't really help us answer the question of whether Pittsburgh is in the same region as, say, NYC.
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I can't say that I'm in great disagreement that Pittsburgh is largely it's own region. I just happen to believe that it shares enough qualities with the Northeastern state in which it happens to be located, to not remove it of that designation.
One could probably treat the Pittsburgh region as a subpart of a larger Northeast region if not for the fact that the Pittsburgh region probably includes parts of Ohio and West Virginia, which most people would not include in the Northeast.
That's fine, but who then decides what is Northeastern and what is not?
To my knowledge no one, meaning there is no official status to that term in US law.
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And more importantly, which few have ever answered: What defines the Northeast as such?
I don't know. Like I said, I'd prefer to dump that term entirely, because I don't find it very useful, and that is partly because it seems pretty ill-defined.
HA... the US Census Bureau gets alot of things wrong on which is is an authority. Somehow, I highly doubt that they are infallible on something which they are not an authority on. The Northeast is an arbitrary term... and arbitrary geographic terms. Lines on a map rarely account for the reality on the ground, and that's what we are talking about. I fear that your thinking might be too confined by what you see in an Atlas.
Ahhhh....didn't you just repeat what I said? Northeast is an arbitrary term so define what you mean by Northeast and prove that the governments term is wrong...you haven't done that.
You seem to have missed the point...I didn't say the census bureau is infallible, just that they use the term and define and that's probably where we get the term--so what reasons do you provide for saying it is wrong?
I'm so glad I have you to think out of the box for me.
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Originally Posted by supersoulty
First off, Pennsylvania isn't even always placed in the Northeast to begin with. Regional breakdowns which include what is called the "Mid-Atlantic" region always place PA there. I find this definition to be equally inaccurate, as it runs off the standard assumption that the state of PA somehow ends just east of Philadelphia.
In fact, now that I am reading this, the U.S. Census Bureau actually places PA in the Mid-Atlantic region... so much for your trump card.
The Census recognizes 9 U.S. regions:
New England
Mid-Atlantic
South Atlantic
E South Central
W South Central
E North Central
W North Central
Pacific
Mountain
There are plenty of people in San Fran who consider themselves to live in "Pacific Northwest" apart from L.A. And in cultural terms, they would be correct.
I'm sure most people from San Francisco don't consider themselves as West Coasters. I bet most people in Memphis say they are from the North because their city's culture isn't like New Orleans' culture!
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Originally Posted by supersoulty
As for the row houses, insignificant, and they were largely a function of lack of space, based on constraining topography. Not an attempt to copy the Northeast. Pittsburgh more grandiose architecture, such as the Cathedral of Learning, the Mellon Institute, etc is also largely a function of historical accident. It wasn't made to copy other cities, so much as the money was there, and unlike Cleveland, et al, Pittsburgh was lucky enough to have millionaires who actually wanted to invest in the community.
This is simply nonsensical. When did I say that Pittsburgh copied the East Coast in building row houses. So in order to be considered East Coast Boston had to copy it's architectural style from other Eastern cities?
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Originally Posted by supersoulty
Maybe you missed it. This is a discussion forum. We have every right to disagree with the options presented and offer alternative theories if we can back our ideas up.
Hahaahahahahahhah Ever hear of context? Maybe you should go back and check it! I never said you weren't entitled to your position. I simply responded to BrianTH who stated that Pittsburghers might choose Northeastern more often if they were faced with only two choices, I referred him to the poll we just took that had more than two choices on it! Reading before responding is generally a good thing.
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Originally Posted by supersoulty
Well, since most of this fictitious "Northeast" is economically and socially liberal, its a start. Politics reflect attitudes and attitudes reflect histories and identities. If Pittsburgh is more like the Midwest (which also doesn't exist according to the Census) politically, well then chances are there is something to that.
I never said there is nothing to the politics of an area, just that I believe politics is not the defining factor to label an area Eastern or Midwestern.
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Originally Posted by supersoulty
You're point about Birmingham is laughable, since historically Pittsburgh and Birmingham have little connection to one another, except what remained of the steel industry in the US that left Pittsburgh ended up there.
What's laughable is that the little connection between Birmingham and the rest of the east is the point.
Last edited by ainulinale; 04-15-2008 at 09:46 PM..
By the way, I think the Birmingham case is instructive. The reason it became the "Pittsburgh of the South" (one of its nicknames) is its strategic location close to the southwest parts of Appalachia, where coal could be found for use in making steel (coal was a lot more expensive to ship than iron ore, which is why the steel industry was in Pittsburgh and not the Northern Peninsula of Michigan--although there was some iron ore near Birmingham as well). So this is actually indirect confirmation of the importance of Pittsburgh's Appalachian location to its economic development.
Ahhhh....didn't you just repeat what I said? Northeast is an arbitrary term so define what you mean by Northeast and prove that the governments term is wrong...you haven't done that.
I'm so glad I have you to think out of the box for me.
My bad. I meant to put an emphasis on the first "is". I was saying that it IS....
No, good one from you. That link leads no where, and your claim directly contradicts this wikipedia link. Look at the very first sentence:
"The Mid-Atlantic States (also called Middle Atlantic States or simply Mid Atlantic) form one of the nine geographic divisions within the United States that are officially recognized by the United States Census Bureau."
The great thing about the modern world is that knowledge is free. Sadly wisdom still is not.
I'm sure most people from San Francisco don't consider themselves as West Coasters. I bet most people in Memphis say they are from the North because their city's culture isn't like New Orleans' culture!
Ummmm... no. Your claim was that they would identify with a strict definition of "West Coast" and that they see commonality with L.A. Again, I was contradicting the premise of your claim. You're not used to that are you, people completely not agreeing with your statements?
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This is simply nonsensical. When did I say that Pittsburgh copied the East Coast in building row houses. So in order to be considered East Coast Boston had to copy it's architectural style from other Eastern cities?
You claim that the row houses grant Pittsburgh some sort of connection to the East Coast. I don't see how you have demonstrated this connection.
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Hahaahahahahahhah Ever hear of context? Maybe you should go back and check it! I never said you weren't entitled to your position. I simply responded to BrianTH who stated that Pittsburghers might choose Northeastern more often if they were faced with only two choices, I referred him to the poll we just took that had more than two choices on it! Reading before responding is generally a good thing.
Sorry if I question the scientific varsity of an internet poll with 40 participants.
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I never said there is nothing to the politics of an area, just that I believe politics is not the defining factor to label an area Eastern or Midwestern.
I'll simply repeat what I said, which is that politics are a reflection of culture and identity.
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What's laughable is that the little connection between Birmingham and the rest of the east is the point.
Go just north of Pittsburgh and you'll find places that are both flat, and where the factories and the farms are right beside one another. Not hat I see hoe the particular topography of an area matters at all. Pittsburgh is way hillier than all the cities in the "Northeast" as well, unless we are talking about, say Concord, New Hampshire, which any comparison of the two is one Hell of a stretch... again lending credence to my point.
I don't know why you listed the historic manufacturing concerns of each city. I know what they are. I never claimed they all produced steel. You corrected me on a point I never made.
[I listed them because I thought it was interesting. It started by my looking up Minneapolis, which I never, ever associated with heavy manufacturing. And I was correct. It was lumber milling and grain milling. So I decided to look up all of them.
BTW... one of Pittsburgh's primary driving industries today is also IT High Tech. And historically, Pittsburgh was, at one point or another, a major center for lumber (you used to be able to walk across the Allegheny on the logs floating down stream) and glass... in fact, glass was Pittsburgh's first major industry and was a leading industry in Western, PA until fairly recent years (the almost complete shutdown of Brockway Glass in the mid-90's was pretty much the final nail). I am familiar with the glass industry in Pgh. Mayer China was in my hometown, Beaver Falls. I have also heard of PP&G. In Meadville, the main industry is tools and dials. Don't you mean tools and dies?
In Erie, historically it was locomotive manufacturing (still important there) and paper production (gone now). Today, one of the big industries in the manufacturing of delicate, highly specialized equipment. Oh, I almost forgot Zurn.
So, your economic diversity idea falls well short of hitting the mark. Pittsburgh and Western, PA, like Midwestern cities, has historically been dependent on manufacturing. Most Northeast cities were far more reliant on pure commerce.
I see ainulinale responded to this, but I just looked a bunch of stuff up on Wiki, so I'll reinforce it. Baltimore: shipping, steel, autos; Delaware and NJ: chemicals, plastics, autos; NY: garments, chemicals; Connecticut and general New England: textiles, aircraft (Conn), brass (Conn), autos (Conn). Most any large city has some manufacturing. Denver: beer, containers for beer, rubber products (Gates), refineries in Commerce City, and nowadays, computer parts and aerospace.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
By the way, I think the Birmingham case is instructive. The reason it became the "Pittsburgh of the South" (one of its nicknames) is its strategic location close to the southwest parts of Appalachia, where coal could be found for use in making steel (coal was a lot more expensive to ship than iron ore, which is why the steel industry was in Pittsburgh and not the Northern Peninsula of Michigan--although there was some iron ore near Birmingham as well). So this is actually indirect confirmation of the importance of Pittsburgh's Appalachian location to its economic development.
Birmingham was called the "Pittsburgh of the South" because it had a lot of steel mills.
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