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View Poll Results: What do Native Pittsburghers Consider Their City?
Northeastern 31 48.44%
Midwestern 4 6.25%
Appalachian 9 14.06%
Northeastern and Appalachian 16 25.00%
Northern 2 3.13%
East Coast 2 3.13%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-15-2008, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,245 posts, read 7,171,016 times
Reputation: 869

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
That's great. Over half the stuff in my closet comes from China. Am I Chinese? Economy isn't everything. I understand your point about connectivity, but that's far from the whole picture.
So Pittsburgh is Eastern in architecture, economics, education, structure and political boundaries, but that should be ignored because it is socially conservative and economically liberal? I guess Birmingham Alabama is Midwestern then!

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
Pittsburgh is linguistically different from the East Coast... very much so. It is also more socially conservative than the East Coast. It still has a fairly working class industrial attitude, even with the changes in the economy that have occurred.
Granted that Pittsburgh still largely has a "working class attitude" but what kind of attitude does Baltimore and Philadelphia have that aligns itself with the "East Coast."

Also, Pittsburgh's accent isn't radically different from the East Coast. I believe both Pittsburgh and Philly are based on Midland accents (Philadelphia also has influence from the South--should we call Philly the south then?) Pittsburgh's accent was directly influenced by the New Jersey/Philadelphia dialect, which in turn spread down the Ohio River. An example of similar linguistics is the term "hoagie" which is traditionally limited to New Jersey, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
Just think of all the stereotypes about people from Pittsburgh, do they remind you more of the midwest or the northeast?
I think this is part of the point--how are you defining Northeast? If you mean Midwest or East Coast, then the stereotypes don't seem to be too reflective of either. Stereotype of Midwest--Corn and farming. Stereotype of East Coast--Cultured and Educated. Neither of these stereotypes fit the stereotype of Pittsburgh.

Last edited by ainulinale; 04-15-2008 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: mistake
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
But you missed my point which was that it doesn't matter (I reject the premise of your statement anyway, but....). The point is about manufacturing as a cultural phenomenon. Almost every city in the Midwest was heavily dependent on manufacturing, as was Pittsburgh (set aside the notion of steel as a "raw material" for a second). Very few Northeast cities had the same level of dependency on manufacturing by the end of the 19th century as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul and Duluth did.
I looked up all those cities except Cincy (since we have fleetiebelle's expertise on that city) on Wikipedia and here is what I found:
Cleveland: perhaps the only other 'real' steel center on your list
Toledo: Glass, autos and auto parts
Detroit: Well, obvi (as the college kids say), Automobiles
Chicago: Meat packing (historical), finance, printing, publishing. It doesn't even mention steel, nor does it mention agri-business, though that is what my former father-in-law did there.
Milwaukee: Brewing, manufacturing (unspecified). I spent a lot of time in Milwaukee in the 50s and 60s, as I had relatives there. No evidence of steel mills. My uncle was a salesman for the Lehigh Valley RR when he lived there.
Minneapolis: Lumber, grain manufacturing (historical). Currently high tech, IT, etc.
Duluth: Steel, yes, but also shipping, cement, etc.
I think the type of manufacturing does matter. Minneapolis, especially was a farming/natural resources type of manufacturing city. Chicago's economy has always been very diverse. Yes, the area arouond L. Michigan had a lot of manufacturing, especially in the auto/steel sectors. But those places area NOT the same. Across the Ohio and Indiana turnpikes, the cornfields are just a few miles away from the mills. Ditto, the Gary area. There's far more of an agricultural presence. Even moreso around Duluth and Minneapolis. And flat! NW Ohio, Indiana, Chicago and Milwaukee are all flat, especially compared to Pgh. Ditto Mpls. The cities are easier to get around in, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle View Post
I don't know. Based on my personal experiences it's more "socially conservative, economically conservative." Agricultural vs. industrial. The northeast has more cities closer together, whereas the midwest has a lot of driving through cornfields between cities. I know my hometown of Cincinnati has manufacturing (it was founded on meat packing and soap) but it feels different, more Midwestern, more conservative, more red-state than Pittsburgh does in a way that I can't explain.
I know what you mean. That's how I feel about Champaign, IL and also Omaha (which is being debated right now on General US as midwest vs Great Plains).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I would agree with you except that nobody I know ever associated themselves with the Midwest. Yes there’s steel, but Buffalo had such industry too, as did Baltimore and Eastern PA communities. I went to Duquesne where I met people from all over the country, but I knew a lot of people from Jersey as opposed to Ohio. Again outside of sports – despite proximity, Pittsburgh isn’t exactly on Ohio’s mind either.
I have family in the midwest. My mom was from Wisconsin. I still didn't identify with the midwest. I went to Pitt, my experiences were the same as JoeP's re: out of state students. Most were from Jersey.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,245 posts, read 7,171,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I have family in the midwest. My mom was from Wisconsin. I still didn't identify with the midwest. I went to Pitt, my experiences were the same as JoeP's re: out of state students. Most were from Jersey.
There seems to be so many people here from New Jersey. Honestly, in the city I've been looking around at people's license plates and I've seen mostly New York and Ohio, New Jersey, Connecticut, Maryland and every now and then Texas. Interestingly, I almost never see West Virginia.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:08 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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Actually, linguistically the Pittsburgh region does in fact have some distinct characteristics, dating back to the earliest Scots-Irish settlers (that is where the "yinz" comes from) and then modified by subsequent waves of Central and Eastern European immigrants. In a recent study based on pronunciation and vowel systems, this dialect region ranged north up to Erie, west to Youngstown, east to Harrisburg, and south to Clarksburg, WV. See W. Labov, S. Ash and C. Boberg, The Atlas of North American English: Phonetics, Phonology and Sound Change (2006).

Edit: Oh, and in this study, the Pittsburgh dialect is in fact classified as part of the greater Midlands family. However, the Midlands family is classified as distinct from the NYC/Mid-Atlantic family, which would include NJ and Philly. So by that criterion, Pittsburgh would actually be more Midwestern than East Coast, although again I think the more accurate statement is that Pittsburgh is part of a distinct dialect region of its own.

Last edited by BrianTH; 04-15-2008 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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There have been many linguistics maps posted on City-Data. You can do a search. The ones I have found most accurate place W. PA in its own dialect, not a sub-set of some other dialect. Ditto St. Louis, Chicago, and a few other places. (To clarify, not that Pittsburgh and St. Louis, et all, have the same dialect, they have dialects distinct to them alone.) Of course, many dialects have elements in common. "Youns/yinz" is spoken in other parts of the country, mainly the mountains of N. Carolina and such, which means the Pittsburgh accent is not midwestern.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,245 posts, read 7,171,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Actually, linguistically the Pittsburgh region does in fact have some distinct characteristics, dating back to the earliest Scots-Irish settlers (that is where the "yinz" comes from) and then modified by subsequent waves of Central and Eastern European immigrants. In a recent study based on pronunciation and vowel systems, this dialect region ranged north up to Erie, west to Youngstown, east to Harrisburg, and south to Clarksburg, WV. See W. Labov, S. Ash and C. Boberg, The Atlas of North American English: Phonetics, Phonology and Sound Change (2006).

Edit: Oh, and in this study, the Pittsburgh dialect is in fact classified as part of the greater Midlands family. However, the Midlands family is classified as distinct from the NYC/Mid-Atlantic family, which would include NJ and Philly. So by that criterion, Pittsburgh would actually be more Midwestern than East Coast, although again I think the more accurate statement is that Pittsburgh is part of a distinct dialect region of its own.

Okay, I don't doubt that you're right. The map I have in front of me is rather old--it says both Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Baltimore are generally under the Midlands family with the influence of Pittsburgh being directly from New Jersey--but as I said the thing is old, I think it was published in the 70s.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
On economic connectivity Pittsburgh's most important cities are: (1) Washington DC, (4) Philadelphia, (7) Boston ...
I was curious about the missing cities so I looked up the study in question, available here:

http://www.brookings.edu/metro/pubs/...orldcities.pdf

The top 10 for Pittsburgh goes like this:

1 DC
2 Cleveland
3 Dallas
4 Philly
5 St. Louis
6 Charlotte
7 Boston
8 Minneapolis
9 Indianapolis
10 Kansas City

I'm not sure that adds up to a strong case for Pittsburgh being more Eastern than Midwestern economically. In fact by my count in the top 10 there are 3 East Coast cities and 5 Midwestern cities (plus Dallas and Charlotte). Incidentally, New York doesn't hit the list until #15, right after Detroit and right before Chicago.

All told, I suspect this economic connectivity analysis just means the eternal East versus Midwest debate will rage on.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,245 posts, read 7,171,016 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I was curious about the missing cities so I looked up the study in question, available here:

http://www.brookings.edu/metro/pubs/...orldcities.pdf

The top 10 for Pittsburgh goes like this:

1 DC
2 Cleveland
3 Dallas
4 Philly
5 St. Louis
6 Charlotte
7 Boston
8 Minneapolis
9 Indianapolis
10 Kansas City

I'm not sure that adds up to a strong case for Pittsburgh being more Eastern than Midwestern economically. In fact by my count in the top 10 there are 3 East Coast cities and 5 Midwestern cities (plus Dallas and Charlotte). Incidentally, New York doesn't hit the list until #15, right after Detroit and right before Chicago.

All told, I suspect this economic connectivity analysis just means the eternal East versus Midwest debate will rage on.

Maybe not, but of the major cities studied: 10 are Midwestern cities only 5 east coast cities. The average placing of the East Coast in this top ten is 4; the average of the Midwest is 7. Also, it was more of a side note to demonstrate that Pittsburgh has economic ties to the East Coast and that it's focus is not entirely Midwestern. Also, as another poster put it--the fact that Pittsburgh is further up New York's connectivity is far more important than New York on Pittsburgh's.
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
4,275 posts, read 7,599,647 times
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I never really consider us Appalachians.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:06 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Maybe not, but of the major cities studied: 10 are Midwestern cities only 5 east coast cities.
But what happens if you weight by, say, total population size?

Quote:
The average placing of the East Coast in this top ten is 4; the average of the Midwest is 7.
But that is in part because there are two more Midwestern cities in the top 10. As an alternative way to sum up, suppose we assign 10 points to the #1 slot, 9 to the #2 slot, and so on down to 1 point for the #10 spot. The East Coast gets 21 points. The Midwest also gets 21 points.

Quote:
Also, it was more of a side note to demonstrate that Pittsburgh has economic ties to the East Coast and that it's focus is not entirely Midwestern.
Sure, but the opposite point is true too. Personally, I would suggest this symmetry between Northeast and Midwest provides further evidence that the most sensible thing to do may be to define a separate region for Pittsburgh.

Quote:
Also, as another poster put it--the fact that Pittsburgh is further up New York's connectivity is far more important than New York on Pittsburgh's.
Really? #4 on NYC's list is Chicago--does that imply Chicago is also in the same region as NYC? For that matter, Tokyo is #2, Hong Kong #5, Guangzhou #6, London #7, Singapore #8, Ho Chi Minh City #9, and Beijing #10. Meanwhile, right after Pittsburgh at #11 comes San Diego at #12, and Cleveland at #13. Minneapolis is the next US city, then LA, Denver, Dallas, SF ... and then finally Philly! Personally, I don't see anything meaningful we can get from this list about which cities are in the same US region as New York.
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