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Old 04-15-2008, 04:53 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,898,586 times
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This really is a perception issue, however.

For example, there are around 2500 innocent people killed by drunk drivers every year (the total number of people killed is much higher, but that includes the drunk drivers themselves). In contrast, there are around 1000 gang-related murders per year, and about 3/4 of the people murdered are members of gangs themselves.

So the number of innocent bystanders killed by gangs is far, far lower than the number of innocent people killed by drunk drivers, by at least around a factor of 10. But of course an innocent person being killed by a drunk driver generally is not considered highly newsworthy, but an innocent person being killed by a gang is. And yet in each case the innocent person is equally dead.

And we could do a similar analysis with just murders, looking at, say, how many victims were killed by spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends, parents, children, neighbors, friends, co-workers, and so on, and how many of those murders involved drugs or alcohol.

And so on. The bottomline is what we tend to perceive as the greatest threats to innocents are not even close to being the true greatest threats to innocents. And that, unfortunately, means we tend to get a warped perception of which sorts of people are in fact doing the most harm to others.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,962,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
This really is a perception issue, however.

For example, there are around 2500 innocent people killed by drunk drivers every year (the total number of people killed is much higher, but that includes the drunk drivers themselves). In contrast, there are around 1000 gang-related murders per year, and about 3/4 of the people murdered are members of gangs themselves.

So the number of innocent bystanders killed by gangs is far, far lower than the number of innocent people killed by drunk drivers, by at least around a factor of 10. But of course an innocent person being killed by a drunk driver generally is not considered highly newsworthy, but an innocent person being killed by a gang is. And yet in each case the innocent person is equally dead.

And we could do a similar analysis with just murders, looking at, say, how many victims were killed by spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends, parents, children, neighbors, friends, co-workers, and so on, and how many of those murders involved drugs or alcohol.

And so on. The bottomline is what we tend to perceive as the greatest threats to innocents are not even close to being the true greatest threats to innocents. And that, unfortunately, means we tend to get a warped perception of which sorts of people are in fact doing the most harm to others.
Absolutely.... which underscores the point I was trying to make, thanks!....

My original post was in reference to the "North Side" thread, but of course, we can always expand the issue to encompass all of society's ills, if we take a big-picture approach to it...

I say it's all Groucho Marx's fault, to begin with....
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:16 PM
 
1,051 posts, read 2,603,476 times
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This whole thing is amazing to me.

Should we take the worst of poor black culture and compare it to the best of rich white culture. Or maybe we should compare rich blacks from the North Hills to poor whites in Fayette County (the most poverty stricken rural county in the state). Or maybe we compare middle class blacks from Monroeville to low class blacks from the North Side. This all seems kinda arbitrary to me and I don't understand the point in comparing two groups with such divergent histories.

It's like everyone forget that blacks where excluded from unions and bank loans. And then our memories got fuzzy about legal segregation and wide-spread institutionalized separation. Then we got amnesia about the lack of acces to the best colleges. And now we're all shocked and appalled that, 1 generation later, these ****-poor kids are killing each other over drug money. Jesus, have you ever heard a rap album and the indoctrination these kids hear every day? (from fortune 500 companies!!!). We should be shocked that black middle and upper classes have been able to establish themselves so quickly. People alive right now, in their 50's, remember when the suburbs were off-limits. So pointing out that poor black communities have a higher crime rate than poor white communities is like wandering around after a rain storm pointing out that the ground is wet......really Einstein? Of course it is.

What's mind boggling to me is that this isn't blatantly obvious to everyone. I guess it's a testament to the media's ability to distort reality and shape public opinion.

So is crime a problem in the poverty stricken black communities in the North Side? Sure. Are the 1 in 6 West Virginians currently on welfare living in squalor? You betcha. Do black kids from Sewickley go to harvard? All the time. Do white kids from Wexford go to Yale? Absolutely.

It is what it is.....

Last edited by zip95; 04-15-2008 at 11:29 PM..
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:35 PM
 
353 posts, read 822,987 times
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I don't know. it could be worse:



MUCH WORSE


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Old 04-16-2008, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,962,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95 View Post
This whole thing is amazing to me.

Should we take the worst of poor black culture and compare it to the best of rich white culture. Or maybe we should compare rich blacks from the North Hills to poor whites in Fayette County (the most poverty stricken rural county in the state). Or maybe we compare middle class blacks from Monroeville to low class blacks from the North Side. This all seems kinda arbitrary to me and I don't understand the point in comparing two groups with such divergent histories.

It's like everyone forget that blacks where excluded from unions and bank loans. And then our memories got fuzzy about legal segregation and wide-spread institutionalized separation. Then we got amnesia about the lack of acces to the best colleges. And now we're all shocked and appalled that, 1 generation later, these ****-poor kids are killing each other over drug money. Jesus, have you ever heard a rap album and the indoctrination these kids hear every day? (from fortune 500 companies!!!). We should be shocked that black middle and upper classes have been able to establish themselves so quickly. People alive right now, in their 50's, remember when the suburbs were off-limits. So pointing out that poor black communities have a higher crime rate than poor white communities is like wandering around after a rain storm pointing out that the ground is wet......really Einstein? Of course it is.

What's mind boggling to me is that this isn't blatantly obvious to everyone. I guess it's a testament to the media's ability to distort reality and shape public opinion.

So is crime a problem in the poverty stricken black communities in the North Side? Sure. Are the 1 in 6 West Virginians currently on welfare living in squalor? You betcha. Do black kids from Sewickley go to harvard? All the time. Do white kids from Wexford go to Yale? Absolutely.

It is what it is.....

And unfortunately, I have to agree with you, wholeheartedly.... there IS a dynamic involved, that whites do bear some responsibility for... but in the end run, no one can shoulder the FULL responsibility for the actions of any one person. . . at SOME point, we HAVE to say, "Okay... he pulled the triger, and HE'S responsible for that... not the rest of us"...

The thread started out asking about crime on the North Side, not about overall racial issues or cultural poverty. And I was trying to address that under that microscope, and purposely was NOT trying to get into the larger issue of What Is Wrong With Society... that can o' worms is big enough, that we could ALL put our two cents' worth in, and STILL never get anywhere... so, I apologize if I have come across as not trying to see that Big Picture (of course though, I DO see it, but wasn't trying to address it as such, in this case).

However, no matter whether we are looking at the small picture of the North Side of Pittsburgh or the HUGE picture of getting people out of poverty and cultural malaise across the country, the answer is still the same, albeit with individual caveats to each case, based on the individual needs of each region, area, cluster and person....

Let's say I were a poor person, of ANY color, living in a slum. Let's further say, that I don't like it. I think that's a fair starting point....

I already know from generations of familial experience, that the government is only going to throw out an occasional bone to me & "my people", but that they won't take on the responsibility of turning my block into Park Avenue, anytime soon... of course, I may feel downtrodden and angered at what I see going on every day, but realistically, what SHOULD I expect the government to DO about it???

What I would have to do, or at least attempt to do, is start gathering up committments from like-minded people in my community, who are also sick & tired of seeing the same crap play out on the strets, day in and day out, because WE are the ones who have the ultimate overall stake in the future OF the area.... get these people together, and start out by identifying the main objectives that we could effectively get discourse started on...

I might say "Jobs" would be a good place to start, because if everyone is working 8-hour days, they'll have less idle time with which to commit crime, and alot less energy as well, since they'll be tired from working all day. So now, how do we get jobs INTO a community?..... Tax Incentives?... A more inviting corporate atmosphere?.... Clean Streets, maybe?....

On this basis, maybe I'd enlist the help of Boy Scouts to clean the streets, the local Representative on the tax incentives, and a gathering of local leaders (in my area) on the idea of attracting new businesses into the area.

On the issue of kids & crime, let's say I'm a parent of a 14 year old boy.... my bot has recently been hanging with the wrong crowd, and seems to be heading towards trouble... I'd sit him down and tell him in no uncertain terms, that acting in a socially irresponsible way will only give him 2 options in life.... jail, or the grave.... period... there ARE no 50-year anniversaries or gold watches for drug dealers.... I would enlist the help of my local police substation and churches to get in touch with local or regional gang awareness groups to start focusing combined efforts on "de-ganging" the area, through high-visibility charity-based activities and events... this has happened in MANY cities, and the effects are positive, in almost every circumstance I've seen.... sure, it takes time, because no one wants to invest the efforts, at first, until they see there's actually a "bandwagon" to jump onto....

This is all theoretical, of course, and for sure would take years of planning & development to ever come full circle and show defineable results, but all I'm saying, is that it HAS to start SOMEwhere. . . . and if it doesn't start within the community itself, then it sure as hell won't be starting at City Hall or in Harrisburg... it simply WON'T start, and the cycle we see now will only repeat itself, generation after generation...

My words ring true, whether we're talking about crime in predominantly black, urban areas or predominantly white, rural ones... there has to be a combined effort by all areas of the community to deal with an issue... any issue... and if no one steps up to the plate initially, then nothing changes... it's the same as saying "I accept the status quo".... and in that case, there's not a damned thing the government can do to change it; it can only throw good money after bad.... and in this country, I think we've already seen the effects of "feel-good" politics that are designed to show that they're "doing something" about a problem, all the while the root causes are left unaddressed, and the problems continue.... Just look at our education system, for proof.... we've lowered the curve and, basically, cut off teachers' only abilities to actually "teach", and instead, give them a set of standardized tests they have to teach to, so that we can push the kids thru the assembly-line and spit 'em out the other side, as "graduates"... Graduates, who can't spell, read, count or who have any social responsibility in 'em....

The hippies & enviro-zoids have a saying that actually makes alot of sense: "Think Globally - ACT Locally".... it really is the only way to start a sustainable campaign on MOST issues.

The problem we have in most of our cities and neighborhoods anymore, is that we think locally and don't act at all... we have a provincial mindset, and we base our thought processes on demarcated "lines" where one issue stops and another supposedly begins, but we fail to see the inter-connectedness of all the issues, and the end result, is a neighborhood where everyone simply gives up, and allows the downward spiral to cintinue, until one day when someone stands up and says "No More", and gets the ball rolling...
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Central Northside
119 posts, read 458,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by By~Tor View Post
I would enlist the help of my local police substation and churches to get in touch with local or regional gang awareness groups to start focusing combined efforts on "de-ganging" the area, through high-visibility charity-based activities and events... this has happened in MANY cities, and the effects are positive, in almost every circumstance I've seen.... sure, it takes time, because no one wants to invest the efforts, at first, until they see there's actually a "bandwagon" to jump onto....
You should be relieved to know that all the things you mentioned as solutions are happening in the neighborhoods of the North Side. Allegheny Youth Development, One Vision One Life, Manchester Craftsman's Guild, YMCA, Pittsburgh Project, Urban Impact Foundation, North Side Urban Pathways Charter School, Jefferson Rec. Center...The list of those serving and empowering youth on the North Side and working to prevent systemic violence is even longer.

The key issue is that these different non-profits and charity-based groups need to collaborate more, and communicate better with each other. Some programs and outreach areas are duplicated, while other vital needs may go unmet. Furthermore, many of the more affluent residents who have moved on to the North Side feel inadequate or less than motivated to investing in the 'urban cultured' youth in their own neighborhoods, thus missing opportunities to make a difference in things like mentoring programs, youth sports, etc.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,962,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtPGH View Post
You should be relieved to know that all the things you mentioned as solutions are happening in the neighborhoods of the North Side. Allegheny Youth Development, One Vision One Life, Manchester Craftsman's Guild, YMCA, Pittsburgh Project, Urban Impact Foundation, North Side Urban Pathways Charter School, Jefferson Rec. Center...The list of those serving and empowering youth on the North Side and working to prevent systemic violence is even longer.
That's awesome!---now, there needs to be alot of publicity broadcast throughout the area, so that others who are interested have an idea of who all is involved, and where they can go to volunteer or to offer their assistance. Local media outlets would probably slobber all over the chance to promote some of these things on the local newscasts, which would also be able to inform and, hopefully, help change the opinions many may have about the North Side!!!

Quote:
The key issue is that these different non-profits and charity-based groups need to collaborate more, and communicate better with each other. Some programs and outreach areas are duplicated, while other vital needs may go unmet. Furthermore, many of the more affluent residents who have moved on to the North Side feel inadequate or less than motivated to investing in the 'urban cultured' youth in their own neighborhoods, thus missing opportunities to make a difference in things like mentoring programs, youth sports, etc.
I think a lack of communication and info-sharing is always one of the central issues challenging efforts like this, and I would think they could come up with some form of "centralized" (I HATE using that word...) data-storing and communications relay, so that all parties could have one place to go, to get the accurate and updated info they need!

As for people not feeling motivated to help the "urban-cultured" youth, I can only go back to what I said about the people who live there having the MOST vested interests in helping make the place more liveable and sustainable... if the people who have the wherewithal to help choose NOT to, then I really don't see where they can complain about the inevitable degradation of the areas in question... kinda' like how if ya' don't vote, you have no right to complain about who governs... same principles apply....

Overall though, it seems like there is the start of a grass-roots effort, and I'd suggest everyone who cares to become involved to whatever degree they can, in order to help bring about the changes everyone wants to happen!

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Old 04-16-2008, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Work is based nationwide
570 posts, read 1,407,419 times
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Howdy.. Wow, some really good posting's going down on this one. I'm in the process of moving into a home I purchased on Perry Hill top. My view beats even Grandview's. I'm excited about the pad and even more so about what could become of the entire North Side. The place does have flavor ! The advice to become involved in community at what ever level is paramount.
I'm a former tennis pro so I think I'll contact the city and offer something such as clinics, hitting sessions, etc on the park's 4 tennis courts. When going to Pirate and Steeler's games and passing the courts I have seen a lot of kids out there hitting around. Heck right out of college I taught on Cleveland's east side for awhile. Now that was some scrappy territory.
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:54 PM
 
1,051 posts, read 2,603,476 times
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By~Tor,

I'm not really sure how to respond.....lets just say that (IMHO) your understanding of the world and my understanding of the world seem to be pretty far apart, and I'm not sure we can reach a common understanding here. Maybe it would be helpful for me to explain, as simply as I possibly can....how I see the world.

We live in a capitalistic country. That means that, fundamentally, the purpose of this country is to compete-for and create capital....it's all one gigantic race for money, and that race will always have winners, losers, and in-betweens. There will never be a communist utopia where every one gets the same award just for showing up. You can no more remove the losers, than you can remove the winners.....in this race some one has to come in last. The only way to eliminate all the losers would be to stop this race and play a completely new game (socialism? communism?)......So barring any drastic changes, we will all remain capitalists for the forseeable future, and this capitalism-race will always have winners, losers, and in-betweens.

Now, close your eyes and imagine this race has 100 people. In reality, 5 people will end up winning. Those 5 people will gain control over 95% of the money. 75 more people won't win or lose, they'll just be in-betweens who spend their lives working for the 5 winners. The 20 remaining people are losers, because they lack the ability to effectively compete, or perhaps they think the race is stupid and don't want to participate....whatever.

So is it a problem that the 20 losers exist....I don't necessarily think so.....in this system somebody has to lose. The real problem is when the race is unfair. The real problem is when people are forced to compete in concrete shoes. The real problem is that until 50 years ago, the rules of the race where...."black people can't play".

So, in my mind, to sit here and divide the losers into subgroups based on skin-color, and then endlessly obsess over the root causes of Homewood, is beyond crazy......If we REALLY want to be real, we should be obsessed with Fayette county. Homewood exists because it's residents were purposefully banned from participating in the race.....that's easy to understand. What's Fayette County's excuse??? Those people really need help.

So the answer is: there's no need to spend your time on city-data obsessing over the ghetto, or the trailerpark, or the barrio.....Truthfully, screw the trailer park, screw the ghetto, and screw the barrio. They will always be there, and that's fine as long as people are given the opportunity to get out. The caretakers of the system (leaders who are voted into office) just need to make sure that people who desire to join the race are able to do so without predjudice. And people already in the race are judged on their ability to compete. If there's something we all can do to make American a little better and a little more competitive in the global economy.....it would be to make sure we judge people on their character and not their clothing. That keeps the system functioning at maximun efficiency....Other than that....don't worry about it. The caretakers will implement the best policies and the TV will tell you how to think, act, and feel.

........So how does this relate to the original topic...It's easy....Ravenstahl is a caretaker of the local system here in Pittsburgh. Gentrification is a simple and thoroughly understood process that has happened successfully thousands of times in thousands of areas. If he can't oversee something as easy as that, he should be replaced with some one who can.
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,962,230 times
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Hey again, Zip!...

Again, I find that I agree with much more of what you say than you may believe... and I certainly am not one who seeks to establish the egalitarian "utopia" you mentioned, as I am a realist, too... There WILL always be winners 7 losers in life... but that's not to say, that at the very least, we can't find ways to make sure the "losers" don't have to live in an environment so devoid of hope, as to induce the criminal element to come in and institute de facto rule via gun violence and drug activity... it's not so much a "black or white" issue as it is, one of caring for the neighborhood you call your own.. end even the poorest of the poor are plenty capable of that much....

In brief, my understanding of the world is that it's a pretty ****ty place, by and large... people hate without reason, discriminate based on issues of color or financial worth... they rob, rape and kill.... and I'm certainly not gonna' be the crusader who stops it...

BUT - - - - if I CAN help to inspire at least one or two people who LIVE there to stand up and start DOING something to help stem the tide of negativism that has exascerbated the issue and turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy for thousands, then I feel my time is well-spent, indeed...

And if YOU happened to be one of the people consigned to actually LIVE there yourself, you might tend to view my point of view more optimistically. . . . . but it's pretty easy to be nihillistic, from a distance...
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