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Old 11-19-2019, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Etna, PA
2,860 posts, read 1,880,983 times
Reputation: 2747

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Quote:
The City of Allegheny was laid out in 1788 according to a plan by John Redick. The lots were sold in Philadelphia by the State government or given as payment to white Revolutionary War veterans. It was incorporated as a borough in 1828 and as a city in 1840. Prior to the 1850s, most of the area was still largely farmland, but was subdivided into residential lots, first for the growing German population and later for Croat immigrants. It was commonly referred to as "Deutschtown," derived from the German word Deutsch, referring to the language and ethnicity.

Allegheny City annexed adjoining municipalities such as the boroughs of Manchester, Spring Garden and Duquesne, and the areas that became Brighton Heights, Observatory Hill, Perry Hilltop, Summer Hill, Spring Hill and Troy Hill.

...

Allegheny was an industrial city and had numerous commercial areas, churches, and social organizations, packing houses, tanneries, soap factories and glue factories that provided opportunities for employment to the primarily German immigrants who settled there. The H.J. Heinz Company built its factory in Allegheny City, close to the Chestnut Street bridge (this has been replaced by the 16th Street Bridge). Heyl & Patterson Inc., a manufacturer of railcar dumpers and ship unloaders, also established a factory in Allegheny City. The surviving structures are now occupied by a furniture warehouse and a bus garage.

By the middle of the nineteenth century, the "Made in Allegheny" label could be found not only on basic iron but on rope, plows, cotton cloth, wool, food, paper, paint, steam engines, wagons and carts, meat, soap, candles, lumber, linseed oil, furniture and a host of other diversified products.[3] Railroad lines were built along the north side of the Allegheny for the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago and the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati & St. Louis railroads in Allegheny City. When workers in Pittsburgh struck against the Pennsylvania Railroad after wage cuts in July 1877, railroad workers on these lines also went on strike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny,_Pennsylvania
Hmm.. doesn't seem like a crappy place inhabited by the wealthy who were simply leeching off of Pgh. Sounds like a prosperous, diverse, and well-managed place in its own right.

It's a shame that the Market House was destroyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_Market_House
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/2286..._market_house/
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Old 11-19-2019, 03:15 PM
 
Location: In Transition
3,829 posts, read 1,664,647 times
Reputation: 1455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4 View Post
Hmm.. doesn't seem like a crappy place inhabited by the wealthy who were simply leeching off of Pgh. Sounds like a prosperous, diverse, and well-managed place in its own right.

It's a shame that the Market House was destroyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_Market_House
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/2286..._market_house/
Your post and analysis was spot on. It’s a place where people wanted to live. There was money, diverse economy and culture. A good bit of not most of the region’s wealth was there. Would it have declined as bad if it wasn’t part of Pittsburgh. That is debatable, but there is plenty of evidence to say the decline would’ve been nowhere near as bad if it remained independent. Other than Wilkinsburg, every other independent municipality has weathered decline very well. Otherwise they still wouldn’t be operating independently and financially solvent. Even Wilkinsburg is still independent. As bad as it is they aren’t looking to merge with Pittsburgh either.

One could argue the Allegheny City economy was more diverse than Pittsburgh’s. It had multiple industries and not just steel. Maybe if they were left separate there is a chance Allegheny city would’ve been the economic driver of the region and not Pittsburgh itself. Maybe we are talking about a regional decline that wasn’t as bad when Pittsburgh lost steel. When AC became the North Side the city wanted the money and tax dollars along with a bigger population . They didn’t appear to care much about keeping it a place people wanted to live or work. The largest decline of the North Side happened when Pittsburgh annexed it. In fact it was still a growing prosperous city in 1906, while Pittsburgh was struggling to pay the bills. 100 years later the city went into Act 47 anyways.

40 years later it was crime ridden and impoverished. The lack of investment allowed buildings to decline and deteriorate. The city’s solution was to build the elevated hiways and Allegheny Center over a once bustling market and urban core.

I put AC merger along with the Hill District as the city’s two greatest failures when it comes to sustainability and preventing decline.

I think there is one thing you and I agree on. There has to be a benefit for somebody to merge with the city. When you look at the big picture and services offered. Just becoming part of the city to pad population numbers is not a good enough reason. The likelihood of you becoming a forgotten neighborhood will likely happen. Look at Carrick, Overbrook and Sheridan. Three neighborhoods annexed after AC. Did they benefit? They were their own boroughs as well.

Any merger in our lifetime will be forced. People aren’t going to voluntarily merge with the city. Not given the history of how it has worked out.

Last edited by Independentthinking83; 11-19-2019 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
595 posts, read 595,728 times
Reputation: 617
Just playing Devil's Advocate here but...

Allegheny could have continued to annex as it had historically been doing to solve other issues it would have encountered over time as industry and trends change. Even if it was never annexed, it didn't live in a vacuum.

And most independent municipalities in Allegheny County have lost considerable population over the past 70 years. Are you advocating to say that places within the urban core that never merged such as Braddock, McKeesport, McKees Rocks, and Mt. Oliver are better than "the rest of Pittsburgh" like Squirrel Hill and Shadyside?
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Etna, PA
2,860 posts, read 1,880,983 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Independentthinking83 View Post
Other than Wilkinsburg, every other independent municipality has weathered decline very well. Otherwise they still wouldn’t be operating independently and financially solvent. Even Wilkinsburg is still independent. As bad as it is they aren’t looking to merge with Pittsburgh either.
...
I think there is one thing you and I agree on. There has to be a benefit for somebody to merge with the city. When you look at the big picture and services offered. Just becoming part of the city to pad population numbers is not a good enough reason. The likelihood of you becoming a forgotten neighborhood will likely happen. Look at Carrick, Overbrook and Sheridan. Three neighborhoods annexed after AC. Did they benefit? They were their own boroughs as well.

Any merger in our lifetime will be forced. People aren’t going to voluntarily merge with the city. Not given the history of how it has worked out.
Wilkinsburg doesn't want a de jure merger with Pittsburgh.
But they're moving towards de facto mergers in key areas. They already send their high school students to Pittsburgh schools. And I also believe there is also sharing, or contracting for, other municipal services (fire or garbage, if I recall correctly)?

I live in Etna. We have a direct bridge connection to the City. We're one of the neighborhoods targeted by SCR's annexation fantasies.
I would want in absolutely no way, shape, or form to be attached to the City. We're a small community, and therefore we have a very responsive municipal government and excellent provision of public services. We do team up with some of our larger neighbors to consolidate services such as schools, water, and EMS. But our police and public works departments are great, as is our Borough Manager.

I'm afraid that we would lose all of that and we would simply be forgotten and left to rot. Much like the West End, anywhere south of Sarah Street, or anywhere north of Ohio Street.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:34 PM
 
Location: In Transition
3,829 posts, read 1,664,647 times
Reputation: 1455
Quote:
Originally Posted by lprmesia View Post
Just playing Devil's Advocate here but...

Allegheny could have continued to annex as it had historically been doing to solve other issues it would have encountered over time as industry and trends change. Even if it was never annexed, it didn't live in a vacuum.

And most independent municipalities in Allegheny County have lost considerable population over the past 70 years. Are you advocating to say that places within the urban core that never merged such as Braddock, McKeesport, McKees Rocks, and Mt. Oliver are better than "the rest of Pittsburgh" like Squirrel Hill and Shadyside?
No. What I am saying is they would probably be worse off. I’m not looking at Pittsburgh through a vacuum, rather the big wholistic picture. Two good neighborhoods do not make a great city.

I think they are better off on their own. What would be their benefit to merge with Pittsburgh? If it was a good idea don’t you think they would be chomping at the bit? McKees Rocks was able to attract jobs at a new railroad center on its own. Merging with the city would result in more neglect. Pittsburgh only takes care of a dozen or so of its own neighborhoods. It’s Ill prepared to take on anything more. Otherwise it is nothing more than to pad population numbers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4 View Post
I'm afraid that we would lose all of that and we would simply be forgotten and left to rot. Much like the West End, anywhere south of Sarah Street, or anywhere north of Ohio Street.
And that is exactly what would happen.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
595 posts, read 595,728 times
Reputation: 617
If we're going to use subjectivity:

I'd argue the West End is doing better than Braddock in terms of governmental neglect. Pittsburgh has a police station there. I play basketball at Wabash Park all the time, it's a safe area. And on the non-governmental side, the theater is great (there was an excellent live rendition of Evil Dead back in Feb), and Tramps has a great karaoke and wing night if you're into that sorta thing. And the West End is much easier to get to than Braddock from an infrastructure standpoint for more of the region.

South of Sarah Street is fine? I'm a bit confused by this one. I work in the South Side and spend most of my time there. Do you mean south of Josephene where the slopes start? Because much of that has been improving all the way up even into Allentown too. But yeah, if you get closer to Mt Oliver (an independent city) it gets rougher and their business district has little to no investment.

And north of Ohio street is great - are you saying the Mexican War Streets are neglected? Or the park? The business district seems to be doing well these days.

Back to objectivity:

The vacuum argument is pointing out that Allegheny didn't function in a vacuum. Just about everything in the area that was developed and/or built out prior to 1950 has lost population. Some example cities you mentioned earlier that would have no benefit include Etna, who have lost roughly the same share of population as Pittsburgh since 1950. McKee's Rocks and Braddock have far worse drops. Adding to this list, we could show that most of these pre-war areas have typically lost the same, if not more than Pittsburgh.

One great example is McKeesport, which had over 50K people for decades and was further from the heart of the urban area. One could make the argument that it was more independent than Allegheny city since it was further from the core. McKeesport's Millionaire's Row has been well documented as being in shambles. Much of the former Allegheny City has been on the upswing lately.
Manchester's revival was featured in a video recently. Allegheny West and the War Streets have been gentrifying (is this a good or bad thing?), as has Deutschstown. The area has also become a destination for night life.

My point is that it's just as easy to argue (with evidence) that Allegheny could have been worse off without Pittsburgh too.

Back to subjectivity (again).

Do I think the city's urban renewal policies were a failure? Yes
Do I think the city was wrong to build highways in the former Allegheny city? No
Do I think the city could have done better with building the highways? Absolutely Yes
Do I think Pittsburgh has been mismanaged and hasn't always properly invested? Yes

But on that last point - I think some of us are letting our bias about the city government too strongly shape our opinion. Suggesting that Allegheny City would have been this great beacon of light that would have never seen the decline of existing local industries, the rise and fall of bricks and mortar retail, civil rights issues and white flight DESPITE these things happening to essentially every single urbanized area in this area of the country post-WW2, especially in this region, is a huge fantasy.

I mean, it's a beautiful fantasy. But be realistic. Next you'll tell me Allegheny city would have also avoided all of the cloudy days and winter weather.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,361 posts, read 16,890,821 times
Reputation: 12390
Quote:
Originally Posted by lprmesia View Post
If we're going to use subjectivity:

I'd argue the West End is doing better than Braddock in terms of governmental neglect. Pittsburgh has a police station there. I play basketball at Wabash Park all the time, it's a safe area. And on the non-governmental side, the theater is great (there was an excellent live rendition of Evil Dead back in Feb), and Tramps has a great karaoke and wing night if you're into that sorta thing. And the West End is much easier to get to than Braddock from an infrastructure standpoint for more of the region.

South of Sarah Street is fine? I'm a bit confused by this one. I work in the South Side and spend most of my time there. Do you mean south of Josephene where the slopes start? Because much of that has been improving all the way up even into Allentown too. But yeah, if you get closer to Mt Oliver (an independent city) it gets rougher and their business district has little to no investment.

And north of Ohio street is great - are you saying the Mexican War Streets are neglected? Or the park? The business district seems to be doing well these days.
I think what tyovan4 was trying to get at by saying "left to rot" that the only portions of the city which are getting major new construction projects (big apartments, big office buildings, etc) is "tween the rivers" plus the direct Allegheny/Monongahela riverfront (North Shore, South Shore, South Side Flats).

This is basically true, though as has been repeatedly pointed out, developers like big flat parcels which are well located. Most of the North Side, South Side, and East End is very hilly, already mostly full of houses, and not all that well located for building tall. The few areas where the market might support it (like right along Grandview in Mt. Washington, or in the historic parts of the North Side) there's snob zoning which limits this.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,244,119 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
All areas in PA are incorporated as either a city, a borough or a township-even the most remote locations. In many states, particularly in the west and south, what is not incorporated as a city is an unincorporated part of the county. The county provides municipal services and law enforcement is provided by the sheriff.
Yes, I knew all that. I misunderstood what eschaton said in a previous post. However, his knowledge of the western US and Colorado law is lacking.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Crafton via San Francisco
3,463 posts, read 4,625,747 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4 View Post
I'm afraid that we would lose all of that and we would simply be forgotten and left to rot. Much like the West End, anywhere south of Sarah Street, or anywhere north of Ohio Street.
Left to rot? I live in Crafton about a 10 minute drive to the West End. I see an accupuncturist on Wabash. I took out of town guests to the Village Tavern on S Main twice last week. Today I had my car detailed at Kirk Auto Detail on Neptune and walked to Cafe 412 on S Main to have lunch and work while I waited for my car. While there I chatted with a commercial fire door salesman who was about to give a presentation to the architecture firm down the street. Doesn't feel like a rotting neighborhood to me. BTW, it was my first visit to Kirk Auto Detail and they did an excellent job for less than most places charge. I was very impressed and will definitely go back.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
32,606 posts, read 77,308,465 times
Reputation: 19071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodjules View Post
Left to rot? I live in Crafton about a 10 minute drive to the West End. I see an accupuncturist on Wabash. I took out of town guests to the Village Tavern on S Main twice last week. Today I had my car detailed at Kirk Auto Detail on Neptune and walked to Cafe 412 on S Main to have lunch and work while I waited for my car. While there I chatted with a commercial fire door salesman who was about to give a presentation to the architecture firm down the street. Doesn't feel like a rotting neighborhood to me. BTW, it was my first visit to Kirk Auto Detail and they did an excellent job for less than most places charge. I was very impressed and will definitely go back.
They're also soon going to be building an upscale apartment building on South Main Street kitty-cornered to Cafe 412.
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