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Old 04-22-2008, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,961,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdecapio View Post
Dang, they are still smoking in restaurants in the Burgh? I was thinking of moving back near family, but honestly I think I will wait until they get up to speed and join the rest of the country (most) and ban public smoking.

You have no idea how hard it was for me to move from an area where there is no smoke in public places (NY, NJ) to a place like Florida which is quasi-smoke free, but places that don't serve food still have it. I was in NY, NJ for almost 4 years of smoke free and then when I went to Florida and went into a sports bar full of smoke I wanted to cry. I hate having to wash everything I have on as soon as I get home!
I think we've gone WAY too far as a nation, in being so uick to ostracize smokers, ESPECIALLY when there are so many GREAT smoke-capturing systems in place... I was in a bar in Pittsburgh over the weekend, and the smoke-fan kept the area so clean, you really couldn't even TELL there were smokers in it...

If being "up to speed" with the rest of the nation means we have to follow the lemmings into the "Politically-Correct" realm, and ostracize a full 30% of the population, then Methinks I'd rather remain in the dark ages....

besides. . . . whether its cancer, a low-flying plane, a freak aneurysm, or bad eating habits. . . . . SOMETHING 's gonna' get ya' someday, anyway.... stressing about eliminating all the threats until there are "none" left, just seems like a waste of time & energy that could be better spent, enjoying each others' company....
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:49 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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While I know smokers sometimes feel persecuted, the thing about smoking is that unlike most "bad habits", smoking can really have a strong negative impact on other people nearby. And it isn't just the long-term health issues associated with secondhand smoke, but also things like allergic reactions and people who are unusally receptive to the smell (e.g., such that it affects how their food tastes). So, unfortunately for smokers, by choosing a "bad habit" that affects other people to this degree, they are likely going to find that activity restricted in public places once a critical mass of the local public are not themselves smokers.
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
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I'd give you a rep for that one if I could, Brian. I have pretty much decided not to get into any more smoking debates, as they all end badly. Suffice it to say, the science is on the side of the non-smokers.

You're right, By~Tor, something will get you, some time. But even if it's a bad habit, like eating too much, smoking, or drinking, I'd rather it be one of my choosing than something someone else exposed me to.

BTW, did anyone hear the news about Nalgene bottles causing cancer? My daughter is taking a cancer biology course this semester at the University of Colorado and her prof's answer to all these cancer scares is: quit smoking!

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-22-2008 at 02:45 PM.. Reason: clarify CU
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh PA
3 posts, read 31,189 times
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Default No smoking

I agree with the non smoking issue. It's disguisting that you can still smoke in restaurants here. However, many bars and reastaurants have taken it upon themselves to ban smoking in their establishments. So it's not as bad as you may think.

Dre
PittsburghVibe | Pittsburgh Notes by Locals

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Old 04-22-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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Personally, I think it is just a matter of time. This is not exactly scientific, but it seems to me most of the people I see smoking in public places in Pittsburgh are on the older side, and generally I suspect the number of people likely to support a citywide public place smoking ban is steadily growing.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Personally, I think it is just a matter of time. This is not exactly scientific, but it seems to me most of the people I see smoking in public places in Pittsburgh are on the older side, and generally I suspect the number of people likely to support a citywide public place smoking ban is steadily growing.
I'm not trying to be argumentative (really!), but if you look at any of the smoking/smoking ban threads here on City-Data, you will see the smokers are willing to fight hard for their "right" to smoke in public buildings. I don't get the impression they are all older folks either. I wish it were as you say. I do think PA needs to get with the program. Many states have enacted such a ban and the bars, etc haven't gone out of business and the sky hasn't fallen as predicted.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:02 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm not trying to be argumentative (really!), but if you look at any of the smoking/smoking ban threads here on City-Data, you will see the smokers are willing to fight hard for their "right" to smoke in public buildings. I don't get the impression they are all older folks either. I wish it were as you say. I do think PA needs to get with the program. Many states have enacted such a ban and the bars, etc haven't gone out of business and the sky hasn't fallen as predicted.
Oh sure, I know smokers of all ages who fit your description. But this is basically a numbers game, because once enough people in the city support a citywide ban, they will have the political clout to get their way. That is why in the end I don't think it really matters whether these people can persuade the diehard public smokers--the people favoring the ban just have to be able to outvote them.

That said, I freely admit I have no hard data on trends involving the number of people in Pittsburgh who would support such a ban. Nonetheless, I'd be willing to bet (a very small sum) that the number is growing.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,961,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
While I know smokers sometimes feel persecuted, the thing about smoking is that unlike most "bad habits", smoking can really have a strong negative impact on other people nearby. And it isn't just the long-term health issues associated with secondhand smoke, but also things like allergic reactions and people who are unusally receptive to the smell (e.g., such that it affects how their food tastes). So, unfortunately for smokers, by choosing a "bad habit" that affects other people to this degree, they are likely going to find that activity restricted in public places once a critical mass of the local public are not themselves smokers.
Well, studies have shown that, in the places where they have installed separate fans & ventilation systems to remove the smoke, that the ambient air quality ios no worse than walking around outside and, in some cases, is even cleaner...

All I'm saying, is that there has to be a way for smokers AND non-smokers to be able to be in the same places, without health being jeopardized.... the answer most cities have chosen, is to simply ban it. . . and in New jersey, there's even a proposal to make it illegal in your own apartment, because smoke MIGHT filter thru walls and affect others. . . .

Taken to its illogical extent, eventually all smokers will be criminals, buying smokes on the black market and taking unnecessary risks just to be able to smoke at all... and putting bans on everything we don't like in life is to easily misused and overextended...
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:56 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by By~Tor View Post
Well, studies have shown that, in the places where they have installed separate fans & ventilation systems to remove the smoke, that the ambient air quality ios no worse than walking around outside and, in some cases, is even cleaner...
If it is true on a practical level (not just in studies) that ventilation systems can eliminate the effects of smoking in public places, then maybe you could get something like mandatory ventilation system laws passed instead of a smoking ban. Of course, then you are putting the cost of dealing with the effect of smokers on the business owners, and indirectly that means putting those costs on all the business's customers, including the non-smokers. So, I would not necessarily bet on your chances of getting this alternative passed unless you could find a way to make it very cheap for all concerned.

Quote:
All I'm saying, is that there has to be a way for smokers AND non-smokers to be able to be in the same places, without health being jeopardized....
Not necessarily, unless as noted above you can eliminate the effects of your smoking on non-smokers, and without imposing much of a cost on non-smokers in the process. Of course, to be precise smokers aren't banned from public places. They just can't smoke in public places where such a ban exists.

Quote:
the answer most cities have chosen, is to simply ban it. . . and in New jersey, there's even a proposal to make it illegal in your own apartment, because smoke MIGHT filter thru walls and affect others. . . .
I won't address the proposed New Jersey law since I know nothing about it, but generally it is not too surprising cities have opted for a ban. The basic problem is that a ban is a cheap way to get the result people want, so again, if you are going to offer them an alternative, it will likely have to be an almost equally cheap approach to achieving basically the same result. If you can't offer them such an alternative, then they are just going to outvote you and that will be that.

Quote:
Taken to its illogical extent, eventually all smokers will be criminals, buying smokes on the black market and taking unnecessary risks just to be able to smoke at all... and putting bans on everything we don't like in life is to easily misused and overextended...
But of course we have always banned some things in public places to the extent they interfere too much with the ability of other people to enjoy the use of those places, and yet we haven't slid down the slippery slope to banning everything. So, the fact that people are starting to support public smoking bans is a pretty good indication that public smoking is in fact causing significant problems for a lot of people.
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, the Iron City!!!
803 posts, read 2,961,121 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
The basic problem is that a ban is a cheap way to get the result people want, so again, if you are going to offer them an alternative, it will likely have to be an almost equally cheap approach to achieving basically the same result. If you can't offer them such an alternative, then they are just going to outvote you and that will be that.
And that, is exactly why I am so full of outrage at society in general... they want to utilize a "Mob Rules" mentality and this is generally accepted, at least until it becomes a matter of the "minority" being either of religious or ethnic diversity stature...and then, the majority has to respect the minority views, whether they agree with them or not...

In the same light, I would agree with you that everything you just said was dead-on accurate, and very sad. . . . sad, that non-smokers wouldn't want to agree to pay a couple extra cents, to ensure their clean air, just the same way the smokers would be paying a few extra cents per drink as well... the end result would be beneficial for everyone involved, and it would avoid all the unnecessary bickering...

The truth is, MOST (and I'm not saying you, or anyone in particular, of course) non-smokers or former smokers simply hate smoke, and don't want it in their lives... I could say the same thing about certain perfumes or people eating chicken on a train or any undesireable odor in an enclosed environment... but I'd get nowhere, other than into a fistfight... so, the government makes these "feel good" bans, designed to shut people up & make them think they're actually DOING something about the "problem", when in reality, smoking rates have only marginally dropped due to sin taxes, and are even starting to go up again in many areas...

Sorry Brian - - I'm not trying to get off on a rant here, and I'm certainly not trying to target you. . . . I'm just saying, that ventilation systems WORK. . . bans only get people pissed off at each other and force a "caste system" mentality. Here in New York, it's well-known that smaller pubs and bars have had a rougher go of it since the ban went into effect, but of course, the government and anti-tobacco lobbies would never let you hear that, so they have artificially dummied up the numbers to include other types of eating & drinking establishments, to show that "business has not suffered"... but you ask the smaller neighborhood pub owners what their nightly Z-tickets read out, and you'll hear the truth...

The whole culture of intolerance just pisses me off, that's all...
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