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Old 05-04-2008, 09:22 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
How does one know how "areas actually" developed? This isn't something that is actually easy to know. In fact which areas developed in this fashion? Lets see the studies. . . . Where is the study that shows this? What is the nature of the association? That is how was "association" defined? How was the association measured?
I suggest you google "creative class" and start reading (this isn't sarcasm--it is what I would do to find you studies, so you might as well do it yourself).

Quote:
Anyhow, if you are trying to target a "creative-class" it its very unclear why the only strategy seems to be to offer free studio space.
Oh, it isn't the only strategy, and indeed cannot be the only strategy since it is unlikely to work on its own. As I noted above, it is just one popular element of a much larger set of strategies people are using to target the creative class.
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
524 posts, read 1,031,391 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
How does one know how "areas actually" developed? This isn't something that is actually easy to know. In fact which areas developed in this fashion? Lets see the studies.

Seriously, do you just pull this stuff out off your butt or what?

Anyhow, if you are trying to target a "creative-class" it its very unclear why the only strategy seems to be to offer free studio space. How much of this "creative-class" will find this useful? "Creative-class"...ha...so funny really.
Seriously - if you're going to get sarcastic, at least know what you're talking about.

Just a few studies:

Emoting with their feet: Bohemian attraction to creative milieu -- Wojan et al. 7 (6): 711 -- Journal of Economic Geography

Abstract: "Creative class theory posits that creative people are attracted to places most conducive to creative activity. The association of the share of employment in the arts with various indicators of economic dynamism provides plausible support for this conjecture. We explicitly test this conjecture by modeling the 1990 share of employment in the arts at the county level, and then use the residual from this regression to explain differences in various measures of economic dynamism between 1990 and 2000. Our results support the hypothesis that an unobserved creative milieu that attracts artists increases local economic dynamism."


Recasting the creative class to examine growth processes in rural and urban counties (David A. McGranahan and Timothy R. Wojan, Regional Studies Vol. 41 No. 2, pp. 197-216, April 2007)

Abstract: "Richard Florida's Rise of the Creative Class (2002) makes a compelling argument that regional development now depends on novel combinations of knowledge and ideas, that certain occupations specialize in this task, that people in these occupations are drawn to areas providing a high quality of life, and thus the essential development strategy is to create an environment that attracts and retains these workers. The present analysis of recent rural development in rural US counties, which focuses on natural amenities as quality of life indicators, supports the creative class thesis. A repetition for urban counties also shows a strong relationship between creative class presence and growth, although natural amenities play a smaller role. However, the results depend on a recast creative class measure, which excludes from the original Florida measure many occupations with low creativity requirements and those involved primarily in economic reproduction. The measure conforms more closely to the concept of creative class and proves to be more highly associated with regional development than the original Florida measure."
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Seriously - if you're going to get sarcastic, at least know what you're talking about.
Oh I'm sorry, should I instead post studies that I haven't read? I really couldn't stop laughing when I read the posted study. But I do love the sort of thing that suggests because you think something is wrong you some how don't know about it. Dispute being a study for the theory, it does not differ much from what I've stated:

Quote:
Since Bohemians are not reasonably
expected to have a direct influence on high-tech industry or entrepreneurial dynamism, their association stems from common unobserved factors that could include creative
milieu. Unfortunately, the available findings are unable to refute alternative explanations making them inconclusive and thus unproductive for informing local
development policy.
The key here is "unproductive for informing local development policy". A correlation is not helpful for public policy, instead you need to know the causal picture. They have none, so my questions about the mysterious causal connection between "bohemians" and business activity is in line with this study.

Quote:
However, evidence of a strong creative milieu is conclusive only in the nonmetropolitan sample, where a surplus of Bohemians was also associated with faster rates of new firm formation and employment growth.
In other words this study shows this strategy does not work for areas like Pittsburgh. Bring "bohemians" to the city will not increase economic activity, just as I suggested.

Quote:
The prudent conclusion is to suspend judgment on the existence
of a strong creative milieu in metro areas.
Note, "strong creative milieu" is what has been suggested here. I suppose being prudent is equivalent to unfounded sarcasm.

I guess my sarcasm was due after all. Seriously, please read studies before posting them. Its rather ironic that even people for the theory, suggest there isn't even information to act on the theory. This is also not to mention there are many arguments against it.

Quote:
This article provides an explicit test of the hypothesis that the same unobservable factors that attract a relative abundance of Bohemians positively influence local economic dynamism
I just had to laugh at this... unobservable factors? Like what supernatural? Mystical interactions of the soul?
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
I suggest you google "creative class" and start reading
Why don't you? Seriously, this sort of suggestion is absolutely silly. But, thanks for showing your pulling rabbits out of your.... At least this time you didn't promise a study at some future date.
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:32 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Humanoid is misrepresenting the contents of that study. For example, the line, "Unfortunately, the available findings are unable to refute alternative explanations making them inconclusive and thus unproductive for informing local development policy," was in reference to the findings available before the study in question, and it was just that problem the study was trying to address.

Similarly, the study did not show "this strategy does not work for areas like Pittsburgh." Indeed, the line immediately after the one Humanoid quoted was: "The findings in metro areas are suggestive but are not reliable enough to conclude that a creative milieu contributes directly to economic dynamism." They went on:

Quote:
For metro areas, our findings are unsatisfying as they identify a potentially large effect, but one that fails to meet conventional standards of reliability. Given the point estimate, metro counties in the top decile of creative milieu would generate close to twice the number of new establishments per worker compared to metro counties in the bottom decile. This is confirmed in the sample, where the top decile generated three establishments per hundred workers, on average, compared to 1.6 establishments generated in the bottom decile. Unfortunately, the standard error associated with the point estimate is large. The prudent conclusion is to suspend judgment on the existence of a strong creative milieu in metro areas.
So, contrary to Humanoid's claim, the study did NOT conclude that "[bringing] 'bohemians' to the city will not increase economic activity." Rather, they found an effect in the data, but the associated error was too large, so they advised suspending judgment.

Anyway, those legitimately interested in the topic should read the paper.
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
was in reference to the findings available before the study in question
Sure, my point of quoting it was simply that the authors suggest that until their "study" nothing has been really determined yet. This study was published in 2007, yet when did Pittsburgh start doing this?

Anyhow, I didn't misrepresent anything. My wording was brief, yes the study does not give negative evidence of the strong theory. What it does show is that there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the strong theory is true in metro areas. So, why again is Pittsburgh spending tax dollars on it then? Contrary to what you posted, the strong theory is indeed speculative as far as metro areas goes (They call it "suggestive"). So, where exactly did you get your information?

So, lets say it again. The conclusion of the study is that the strong theory cannot be confirmed in metro areas. This was the main thing I was questioning above, thanks for posting information that confirms my position (or...err... the new mystery poster)
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
524 posts, read 1,031,391 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Its rather ironic that even people for the theory, suggest there isn't even information to act on the theory. This is also not to mention there are many arguments against it.
I have taken no position on being "for" or "against" the creative class theory. My point is simply that before responding to posts regarding its tenets and sarcastically questioning whether there were studies surrounding it, you should educate yourself on what it means first.

Certainly there are arguments both for and against it, as with most sociological theories.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
My point is simply that before responding to posts regarding its tenets and sarcastically questioning whether there were studies surrounding it, you should educate yourself on what it means first.
The fact is you have no idea what I know, yet your comment supposes that I don't know about "create class theories". Mocking such ideas does not indicate that you don't know about them. Furthermore you follow up with a study that pretty much confirms my suspicion of what was being stated (what the study calls strong creative milieu), or at the very least shows one has good reason to be suspicion. Lastly, I never questioned that studies existed for this stuff. Rather I questioned whether there were studies that supported what BrianTH stated - that strong creative milieu is more than a hypothesis.
One has to wonder where BrianTH got his information, well I think I know....

Contrary to what your crystal ball seems to tell you, I have read about this stuff before. Am I an expert on the topic? No.

Quote:
Certainly there are arguments both for and against it, as with most sociological theories.
The claims being made are economic in nature. And the point is to analyze the claims made not count the number of studies for or against some claim.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:28 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Just for the record, here are the propositions I stated above:

Quote:
The research suggests that the urban communities in post-industrial cities which have succeeded in attracting [members of the creative class] have tended to end up redeveloping much more rapidly than the communities which have not.
This correlation is well established, as the study reports.

Quote:
But the basic problem is how to get this all started, meaning how do you make your neighborhood popular with the creative class?
This is the causal question, and it is indeed a lot trickier question, as the study also reports.

Quote:
And there is some evidence that these efforts [to target artists in the first wave] really do help revitalize urban neighborhoods ...
The study reflects that there is indeed "some evidence" for this proposition, although it is not yet conclusive. Which of course is why I did not say something like: "The evidence proves that these efforts help revitalize urban neighborhoods." That would indeed be overstating the state of the research, but some evidence does in fact exist.

Quote:
.... but they also have to be combined with a number of different factors (e.g., communication and transportation infrastructure improvements, thoughtful commericial and residential development, innovative school options, and so on) for the whole creative class to truly become interested in a neighborhood.
And here I recognize that targeting artists is unlikely to work on its own.

Anyway, people can judge for themselves whether the linked material backs up what I originally claimed.

Last edited by BrianTH; 05-05-2008 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:38 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Oh, and also for the record, here are some of Humanoid's claims:

Quote:
Having such areas is neat and certainly adds value to the area, but it doesn't seem to do much for the economy.
Quote:
[Attracting artists] will add value (culturally) to the area, but its unlikely to help the local economy in a dramatic way.
Quote:
In other words this study shows this strategy does not work for areas like Pittsburgh.
Quote:
Bring "bohemians" to the city will not increase economic activity, just as I suggested.
Those are all claims which do not just question how strong the evidence for the theory might be, but which actually state the opposite conclusion. So, again, people can judge for themselves whether the linked material actually backs up what Humanoid has claimed here.
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