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Old 05-09-2008, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592

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Quote:
Also, whites and blacks are definitely mixed on the same streets here, in just about the percentages that BrianTH suggested.
Again the percentages say nothing about racial integration, they only tell you the numbers of such and such living in the area. You can have 50/50 white and black yet total segregation. And sure there are streets where its mixed, but those streets are typically in areas that border a white area and a black area. Although, white vs black areas in the city are clearly defined there isn't a line on the ground that defines them, instead there is sort of a fuzzy line where it moves from black to white or vice verse.

Also, its not odd for a previous black community to turn white this is the unspoken goal of many gentrification projects. But it takes a bit to get rid of all the previous residents, so for awhile at least you'll have what looks like a mixed neighborhood. But that isn't my idea of racial integration.

Anyhow, I will say it again. You can clearly point out which areas of the city are white and which areas of the city are black, it doesn't matter that neighborhood X has such and such percentages of white/black. For example I always thought it was funny that the Giant Eagle on Center Ave (bigger one) is 90%+ non-black, where as the Giant Eagle on Shady/Penn is 90%+ black despite being rather close to each other.

Anyhow, the racial situation is bad in Pittsburgh but there are other areas that are worse. I don't think the situation in Pittsburgh is any worse than Philly. Regardless, 7.6% of residents in the Pittsburgh area live in racially integrated areas. That isn't actually a high number given the number of blacks in the city. A lot of these areas aren't even in the actual city rather east of the city:

Black-White Housing Patterns in Pittsburgh

But this is the problem with Pittsburgh cheer leading. Citing information that is highly deceptive to try and show that the city is better than the facts would suggest. Although this may make certain people feel better about their choices etc, it actual hurts other people thinking about the area.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:04 PM
 
314 posts, read 846,311 times
Reputation: 62
Just a little FYI. When all you ever post is negative stuff, people tend to discredit anything you say as just being bitterness. I have never read a positive thing typed on your keyboard about Pittsburgh and so I perceive everything you say as being twisted by your overactive brain into something to neatly fit your preconceptions. Granted, I also take the "Pittsburgh cheerleader's" comments with a grain of salt but they are, at least, positive and, therefore, easier to like.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
I know these areas quite well, and in the areas we have been discussing there are indeed people of different races living together on the same blocks.
You pretend to know all sorts of things quite well, thats the problem. The areas being discussed are areas in transition between a white area and a black area naturally there are going to be whites and blacks living together on "some blocks". But its pretty obvious this isn't an example of a mixed neighborhood.

Although the citation above does seem to indicate that the North point breeze area is indeed a racially mixed area at least in terms of housing. Such studies don't say much about actual interaction though which I suspect to be little, but I don't know of a study that tracks such things.

Quote:
Granted, I also take the "Pittsburgh cheerleader's" comments with a grain of salt but they are, at least, positive and, therefore, easier to like.
Yeah many people have a negativity bias for some reason, not sure if its just cultural or runs deeper. Regardless one should take positive and negative comments in the same way. Personally, I prefer to point out the negative things more because the forum is so geared towards Pittsburgh propaganda.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:27 PM
 
314 posts, read 846,311 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
You pretend to know all sorts of things quite well, thats the problem. The areas being discussed are areas in transition between a white area and a black area naturally there are going to be whites and blacks living together on "some blocks". But its pretty obvious this isn't an example of a mixed neighborhood.

Although the citation above does seem to indicate that the North point breeze area is indeed a racially mixed area at least in terms of housing. Such studies don't say much about actual interaction though which I suspect to be little, but I don't know of a study that tracks such things.


Yeah many people have a negativity bias for some reason, not sure if its just cultural or runs deeper. Regardless one should take positive and negative comments in the same way. Personally, I prefer to point out the negative things more because the forum is so geared towards Pittsburgh propaganda.

But, what I don't think you see, is that by being so constantly negative, you diminish your believabilty and cause good ole regular folks just lookin' to find out about a town to put less credence in what you say. My husband is the same way with this area. He has begun to hate being here so much that everything negative that happens around him must be directly caused by this area alone. It begins to seem like a broken record and, after awhile, no one wants to listen anymore. Just the fact that so many people are on this forum looking to move to the area suggests that it has some hope. So maybe you can infuse your posts with some of that hope as well as the negative aspects of what you see in pGH. I, honestly, believe people will be more receptive to your posts and you will accomplish your goal of giving people the REAL picture more successfully.


Just a thought
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:38 PM
 
1,051 posts, read 2,602,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Just from my experience I know this is nonsense. But where did you get information that suggests this? Just from looking at the Census BrianTH posted 47% of East Liberty's residents have done "some college" work (around 30% with degrees) And 8.6 have graduate/professional degrees. These figures alone suggest educated middle-class blacks (East Liberty's median income is in line with many middle-class white areas of the city) are more than "few" in number.
Sure, parts of East Liberty are solid, but I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about $50k and up black households. These people generally flee the city the first chance they get and hence, are relatively small in number, except for the few neighborhoods previously mentioned.

I'm surprised I have to explain this as it's a pretty obvious and well known trend. Black flight has been occuring for 50 years. This should be no more controversal than saying white professionals (except for a few east end neighborhoods) have left the city...

The point of my post had nothing to do with the college drop-out rate in East Liberty. The point of my post was that Pittsburgh (the city) has very few racially-diverse white-collar, professional, higher-level neighborhoods. The type of neighborhoods one can find in LA, NY, Philly, Chi, Atl, etc
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:53 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
And sure there are streets where its mixed, but those streets are typically in areas that border a white area and a black area.
I'm not sure we are really disagreeing here. The neighborhoods we have been discussing are small by the standards of ordinary cities (meaning cities without so many distinct neighborhoods), and are indeed located between neighborhoods which have considerably less racial diversity. With respect to a point you made later, I would also agree that these areas are not representative of the entire city of Pittsburgh when it comes to racial diversity. In fact, I was setting out to identify what I considered to be the most racially diverse areas in Pittsburgh, not the ones with a typical level of diversity for the city.

Quote:
But that isn't my idea of racial integration.
Nor mine. But as I suggested before, many of the organizations involved in developing these areas are well aware of this effect (gentrification leading to a loss of racial diversity), and taking active measures to try to maintain racial diversity even as the neighborhoods redevelop. We'll have to see if they are successful (as I noted, the 2010 Census will be a big test), but I don't think there is a fundamental barrier to success--indeed, a significant number of people view racial diversity in their neighborhood as an appealing attribute, so the question then becomes one of making sure the demand for this sort of neighborhood is filled.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:58 PM
 
1,051 posts, read 2,602,186 times
Reputation: 638
Humanoid,

Also, you should understand that segregated neighborhoods roughly correlate with income. So it should be no surprise that working class Pittsburgh is pretty segregated while certain much-better-off East End neighborhoods are less so.

I think you guys are talking past each other. You seem to be saying the poor folks on the North Side don't mix, while other posters are saying the black doctors in my neighborhood fit in fine.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:14 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95 View Post
Humanoid,

Also, you should understand that segregated neighborhoods roughly correlate with income. So it should be no surprise that working class Pittsburgh is pretty segregated while certain much-better-off East End neighborhoods are less so.

I think you guys are talking past each other. You seem to be saying the poor folks on the North Side don't mix, while other posters are saying the black doctors in my neighborhood fit in fine.
I also think part of the issue is that we are simultaneously considering the recent pasts, presents, and possible futures of these areas. For example, without denying the realities of the past or present, I would suggest that it is possible in the future that this development of racially diverse neighborhoods will not just be limited to higher-class neighborhoods. Indeed, I know that people in these areas are specifically trying to develop mixed-income neighborhoods, and that is in part because that is one of the ways to keep gentrification from resulting in less racial diversity.

But I would gladly admit that today the overall situation as far as racial integration in Pittsburgh is far, far from ideal. And even if the more optimistic scenarios are eventually realized, it is going to be a long time before the overall situation in the city approaches something I would even consider barely tolerable as the status quo. Still, I believe this is one of those situations where the only plausible path to improvement is gradual, meaning basically starting with small areas of racial and economic diversity and hopefully expanding them over time.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,133,707 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
I also think part of the issue is that we are simultaneously considering the recent pasts, presents, and possible futures of these areas.
I'm talking about the present as should everyone else. I'm pretty sure the poster does not have a time machine.

Quote:
You seem to be saying the poor folks on the North Side don't mix, while other posters are saying the black doctors in my neighborhood fit in fine.
Yes, I'm talking about the more "working class" areas of the city (Bloomfield is such an area).

Quote:
The point of my post had nothing to do with the college drop-out rate in East Liberty. The point of my post was that Pittsburgh (the city) has very few racially-diverse white-collar, professional, higher-level neighborhoods.
The mention of East Liberty should be obvious. Its a mostly black area and if 8% of its residents have graduate level degrees I don't think you can claim there are "few educated blacks" in the area. If you were talking about general trends in the city then you should have stated that the city has "few educated middle-class" people. But I really don't think that is true either, the city is filled with a lot of educated folks. But the majority are associated with the universities.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:48 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
I'm talking about the present as should everyone else.
Your preferences are duly noted.
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