Pittsburgh Pirates 2021 season (Prospect: living in, ticket, quality)

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano

Derek Shelton leaves Vieaux in to throw 50 pitches in one inning. In an era where pitch count is the be all, end all when it comes to working pitchers.


Derek Shelton is just another John Russell -- a bridge manager. Hopefully the next manager is more like Clint Hurdle.

He’s been using Bednar for multiple innings and used Stratton for multiple innings also. Neither has worked out well, and now Bednar has blown 3 or 4 saves in a row, can’t remember, and is hurt, though I don’t know to what degree. Overall the pitching is terrible and has been since the 2016 “bridge year”. I still laugh at that excuse not to spend money. 1 winning season since.

[Tony_Soprano]

Originally Posted by erieguy

He’s been using Bednar for multiple innings and used Stratton for multiple innings also. Neither has worked out well, and now Bednar has blown 3 or 4 saves in a row, can’t remember, and is hurt, though I don’t know to what degree. Overall the pitching is terrible and has been since the 2016 “bridge year”. I still laugh at that excuse not to spend money. 1 winning season since.

One winning season and during that season, one of the worst trades the franchise ever made when they traded for Chris Archer. And, that's not hindsight. I hated the trade at the time. That type of prospect package is what you give up for someone like David Price circa 2014.



But yes, "Shelty" has overworked Bednar, too, and it caught up to him. The thing they should be doing is developing players, not going for wins. In that context, they need to pare the roster of useless players like Tsutsugo and VanMeter.



That "bridge year" was definitely a year to spend money. Should have kept that roster in tact and gotten a replacement for Burnett. I will point out that Cutch took a step back that year but would have done better with a legitimate roster? I don't know.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano

One winning season and during that season, one of the worst trades the franchise ever made when they traded for Chris Archer. And, that's not hindsight. I hated the trade at the time. That type of prospect package is what you give up for someone like David Price circa 2014.



But yes, "Shelty" has overworked Bednar, too, and it caught up to him. The thing they should be doing is developing players, not going for wins. In that context, they need to pare the roster of useless players like Tsutsugo and VanMeter.



That "bridge year" was definitely a year to spend money. Should have kept that roster in tact and gotten a replacement for Burnett. I will point out that Cutch took a step back that year but would have done better with a legitimate roster? I don't know.

They also let Happ walk which turned out to be a big mistake.

If I remember right, Archer hadn’t had a good season since I think 2016 to begin with. That trade will go down as one of the worst in MLB.

The Walker trade was also terrible. Funniest thing about that is it was so personal for Huntington. Walker wouldn’t take a hometown discount and ended up making more in 3 years with the Mets that what was offered with the Bucs in 4…and if I remember right they trot Neese, Vogelsong, Locke, Nicasio, and another scrub for that season.

And let’s not forget how many pitchers have left here and done sOOO much better elsewhere. Holmes, Musgrove, Cole, etc…

On the bright side, they’re I think 13th in MLB in homeruns which is something I don’t remember happening in many years being that high…but it can’t cover up for such poor defense, pitching, lack of walks, on base percentage, etc…

[Tony_Soprano]

That was a huge mistake because he ended up pitching well for greater than the three years he signed for with Toronto. Again, not just hindsight, but I thought at the time it was worthwhile because lefties typically last a lot longer than righties.

That sounds right with Archer and even at that, he was never a top of the rotation starter. He was always a sold mid-rotation starter, at best. Huntington got full himself and thought he could work magic into any acquisition.

I don't know what Huntington had against Walker but that's another horrible trade and someone who should have been extended rather than traded.

Such a mess of a franchise. The CBA is horrible, but then you have inept management and ownership and that adds up to the odds being too much to overcome. The Pirates being are a perennial laughingstock.

[erieguy]

Nutting will never spend. Gotta draft and develop so much better

[Tony_Soprano]

That's the thing that frequently get overlooked and it's also the source of their biggest issues. They can't draft and develop talent. I will say that I'm a fan of Cherington given what he did building the farm systems of Boston and Toronto, but the thing I don't know is did those teams spend more on things like scouting? Or, was the Cherington the main cog? I do like what he's doing here. Thing is, it's going to be 2024 - at least - when the team is competitive again.



One thing I've always disliked about baseball is how long it takes between when a player is drafted and when he starts playing at the ML level.

[erieguy]

I’d wager they don’t spend much on scouting and minor league coaching to be able to draft and develop players.

Especially if a high school player gets drafted, but then there’s the opportunity to tout “prospects, prospects, prospects”. Tim Williams of Pirates Prospects made a good living off of it for many years until folks no longer bought into the hype and he couldn’t sell subscriptions so he shut it down. Not sure if he’s still writing for someone else or not.

[Tony_Soprano]

Originally Posted by erieguy

I’d wager they don’t spend much on scouting and minor league coaching to be able to draft and develop players.

Especially if a high school player gets drafted, but then there’s the opportunity to tout “prospects, prospects, prospects”. Tim Williams of Pirates Prospects made a good living off of it for many years until folks no longer bought into the hype and he couldn’t sell subscriptions so he shut it down. Not sure if he’s still writing for someone else or not.

Funny, I was going to mention the selling of hope with regard to prospects and was thinking about Tim Williams capitalizing on that. Last I saw, his site merged with another. I can't recall the name of the other site. Not sure if hi site is still subscriptions based.

He used to drive me crazy with how he used to tout prospects as being the next big thing. Then, after they were deemed busts, he would rationalize by pointing out their flaws. That right there told me it's all about selling hope.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano

Funny, I was going to mention the selling of hope with regard to prospects and was thinking about Tim Williams capitalizing on that. Last I saw, his site merged with another. I can't recall the name of the other site. Not sure if hi site is still subscriptions based.

He used to drive me crazy with how he used to tout prospects as being the next big thing. Then, after they were deemed busts, he would rationalize by pointing out their flaws. That right there told me it's all about selling hope.

It was such a sham, but folks bought into it for a long time. He was often referred to as Tim Shilliams….but Brown, Walk, McHenry, and Wehner have so picked up the homering slack.

Supposedly the oh so ridiculous move of putting Nicasio on waivers where the Pirates got nothing because Huntington wouldn’t trade inside the division to the Cardinals was the end as folks canceled subscriptions and he couldn’t replace them. Fans had finally wised up.

Nicasio went to the Phillies so the Pirates could save $600k, and the Phillies prospered by eventually trading him to the Cards for a prospect while the Bucs got nothing in return but saved $$$.

https://www.thegoodphight.com/platfo...-the-cardinals

[Tony_Soprano]

Gosh, I remember that so well. Huntington probably thought he was getting another Liriano and Burnett with Niese and Nicasio. Niese had probably on or two good years with the Mets and Nicasio had a two-pitch arsenal. Then, to get rid of Nicasio to dump his salary was pathetic.

Can't blame people for canceling subscriptions to Pirates Prospects after that. The con job was up - Huntington et. al couldn't draft well. And the good pitchers they drafted went on to thrive elsewhere.

I'm really curious to see how Shane Baz does in the coming years. It was bad enough to give up the other two but to include Baz - that's when I decided I'm not going to games anymore. I've been to one game since that trade.