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Old 07-15-2021, 07:39 AM
 
Location: In Transition
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It’s all about economics too. As I said wages are lower than average for most occupations in this metro. You have a stagnant economy where a handful of niche workers are making the cash. Minority middle class is pretty much nonexistent in this metro and the working class majority population isn’t much better off.

If the economy diversified, grew and provided more opportunity for all people you wouldn’t have this large collection of poor dilapidated neighborhoods and suburbs. You can’t really do anything with them unless you fix the region economic situation. People need to live somewhere. Right now what you see is what a large number of people can afford.

Again if we had a growing economy with opportunity for all then this would be a bit easier of a sell. We don’t and that’s why you have suburbs like Braddock, McKeesport, Mckees Rocks, Wilkinsburg and others that look how they do. People are doing what they can to survive on the wages and opportunities available.
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Old 07-15-2021, 08:19 AM
 
611 posts, read 359,881 times
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Regardless of what metro, dozens of tiny communities in such proximity is not efficient.
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Old 07-15-2021, 09:48 AM
 
Location: In Transition
3,829 posts, read 1,661,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbraybarten65 View Post
Regardless of what metro, dozens of tiny communities in such proximity is not efficient.
Efficiency has nothing to do with what people can afford. Two separate issues. Who said Wilkinsburg was less efficient than Pittsburgh?

Wilkinsburg is a low income renter suburb close proximity to the city without the 3% wage tax and fear of displacement. Residents want it to stay that way because it works for them.

People hold onto their fiefdoms because local governments in PA are known to be corrupt, expensive and poorly run. People would rather keep what they have then put faith in trusting someone else. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know.
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Old 07-15-2021, 10:07 AM
 
611 posts, read 359,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Independentthinking83 View Post
Efficiency has nothing to do with what people can afford. Two separate issues. Who said Wilkinsburg was less efficient than Pittsburgh?

Wilkinsburg is a low income renter suburb close proximity to the city without the 3% wage tax and fear of displacement. Residents want it to stay that way because it works for them.

People hold onto their fiefdoms because local governments in PA are known to be corrupt, expensive and poorly run. People would rather keep what they have then put faith in trusting someone else. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know.

I wasn't speaking to affordability in that regard. I'm speaking to municipalities.


My comment was about the general inefficiencies of multiple tiny municipalities.


No need to rehash the points that you already made.
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Old 07-15-2021, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,361 posts, read 16,879,345 times
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The most likely effect a merger would have on property taxes would be an immediate drop, followed by a later rise. Though whether that rise would be small or substantial likely depends upon the individual property and the neighborhood in Wilkinsburg.

As it is, everything would come into the city at the assessed price as if it was still in Wilkinsburg. The mill rate would drop, taxes would drop. Pretty simple.

A practice has now begun where every time a property is sold, some local government agency (city, BOE, etc) appeals saying the assessed value should be the most recently recorded sales price. This will continue to occur, but it doesn't hurt long-time homeowners.

No one really knows when the next Allegheny County assessment will happen. Obviously it will result in adjustments across the city. Areas where property values are falling (or not rising as rapidly as the average) will get a tax cut, while rapidly appreciating areas will get a big tax increase. But my experience from the 2011 reassessment in Lawrenceville is the city applied a lot of fudge factor. My home was previously assessed at $23,500, and bought for $53,000 in 2007. I believe the reassessment only pegged the house's value at $67,000, even though it sold for $150,000 three years later. I presume they will find ways to tilt the scales again.

I don't think that merging with the city alone will be enough to spark gentrification in Wilkinsburg. I do expect it will be a shot in the arm for the nicer neighborhoods right on the western fringe of Wilkinsburg, and these areas will see significant increases in property values. Though the school situation is a bigger issue when it comes to that, IMHO, meaning Wilkinsburg SD would have to be abolished as well for those areas to become functionally no different than eastern Point Breeze.
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Old 07-15-2021, 01:02 PM
 
Location: In Transition
3,829 posts, read 1,661,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbraybarten65 View Post
I wasn't speaking to affordability in that regard. I'm speaking to municipalities.


My comment was about the general inefficiencies of multiple tiny municipalities.


No need to rehash the points that you already made.
I rehash those points because people keep bringing up the municipal mergers. I agree we have too many, but you have a culture and history in place that isn’t going to change people’s minds about it.

I think it would happen if we had a growing economy and growing population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The most likely effect a merger would have on property taxes would be an immediate drop, followed by a later rise. Though whether that rise would be small or substantial likely depends upon the individual property and the neighborhood in Wilkinsburg.

As it is, everything would come into the city at the assessed price as if it was still in Wilkinsburg. The mill rate would drop, taxes would drop. Pretty simple.

A practice has now begun where every time a property is sold, some local government agency (city, BOE, etc) appeals saying the assessed value should be the most recently recorded sales price. This will continue to occur, but it doesn't hurt long-time homeowners.

No one really knows when the next Allegheny County assessment will happen. Obviously it will result in adjustments across the city. Areas where property values are falling (or not rising as rapidly as the average) will get a tax cut, while rapidly appreciating areas will get a big tax increase. But my experience from the 2011 reassessment in Lawrenceville is the city applied a lot of fudge factor. My home was previously assessed at $23,500, and bought for $53,000 in 2007. I believe the reassessment only pegged the house's value at $67,000, even though it sold for $150,000 three years later. I presume they will find ways to tilt the scales again.

I don't think that merging with the city alone will be enough to spark gentrification in Wilkinsburg. I do expect it will be a shot in the arm for the nicer neighborhoods right on the western fringe of Wilkinsburg, and these areas will see significant increases in property values. Though the school situation is a bigger issue when it comes to that, IMHO, meaning Wilkinsburg SD would have to be abolished as well for those areas to become functionally no different than eastern Point Breeze.
So would Wilkinsburg school district have to be disbanded totally first, before a municipal merger takes place?
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Old 07-15-2021, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,361 posts, read 16,879,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Independentthinking83 View Post
So would Wilkinsburg school district have to be disbanded totally first, before a municipal merger takes place?
It's a separate entity, and would have to be done away with via a separate vote. WSD wouldn't just vanish post merger.

WSD has already gotten rid of everything above grade 6 - they pay PPS a per-student fee to educate kids from ages 7-12. The original deal was they just got to go to Westinghouse, but this has changed in recent years I believe, with some WSD kids now attending the magnets as well.

Full SD consolidation would make a much more dramatic change in tax structure. Pittsburgh has a school property tax rate of 9.95 mils, WSD 29.5 - meaning the property taxes would drop by close to 2/3rds. On the other hand, the income tax rates would be much, much higher, since Pittsburgh residents pay a 2% income tax for schools, while Wilkinsburg pay only 0.5%. So, effectively, property taxes would be cut by around 1.96% of the total value of the home, while taxes on wages would go up by 1.5%. As long as you have a home assessed at more than 77% of the amount of money you make in a single year, it would save you money, meaning almost every homeowner would make out better - particularly retirees, as they are exempt from any income taxes.

A full merger of the school systems would, as I said, pretty quickly make the already desirable areas of Wilkinsburg like Regent Square and Whitney Park pretty much equivalent to Squirrel Hill/Point Breeze in terms of housing prices. I don't really see it spreading to the other side of the busway any time soon though.
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Old 07-15-2021, 01:58 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
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One of you mentioned that some local NGO was pushing this. If so, start turning over rocks to find out why, altruism is never the real reason when it comes to politics.
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Old 07-15-2021, 04:32 PM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,783,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer View Post
Gentrification destroys as much historic architecture as it saves. The two ideas are unrelated. Gentrification is about income and displacement. Preservation is about history and architecture. Gentrification is about developers and flippers. Preservation is about restoration, skilled craftsmen, and historians. Gentrification is condos and drive through Starbucks where old churches, corner stores, and affordable single family homes used to stand.

Sometimes the two concepts overlap, but that is mostly due to developers getting tax credits for restoring historic buildings correctly. Many of the most historic and intact neighborhoods were once slums. Manchester and the South Side Flats were both noted slum districts in the 1930s. These areas survived intact partly because developers weren't rushing in to build them up. There was no demand, the area stagnated, and the buildings survived. Of course, deterioration kills as much history as the greedy developer. Fortunately, the city adopted some historic districts, of which the South Side is the largest. That's why East Carson Street has that long, glorious stretch of Victorian business district.



The Lower Hill is gone because of government intervention, eminent domain, racism, and the suburban mindset of the 1950s. The residents were not to blame.

Homewood was one of the neighborhoods that poor families from the Lower Hill were relocated to, after the city took their homes. Then you had the steel industry collapse, suburban migration, and the crack epidemic and war on drugs. That's what happened to Homewood. If you want to blame someone, maybe the slumlords who let the properties decline. I am guessing the home ownership rate in Homewood is not super high.
Wouldn’t know where to begin. The Hill was burned down due to MLK riots. The Civic Arena is a silly excuse. Not buying it.

Gentrification saves buildings. If the is no gentrification the will be a rewilding as we clearly see in the Hill and Homewood.

Living in the fake worlds is getting just too silly.

Remember when the government threw a bunch of money at Wilkinsburg a decade or so ago? That was like lightning cigars with hundred dollar bills. Throwing it away.

If Wilkinsburg becomes part of the city it could be saved. If not, it will keep going down the tubes.

I personally don’t care what happens. I do think it would be good for both to merge though and it would be cool if it was an area for successful blacks to live and enjoy, but know that isn’t likely as it seems to be attacked by blacks that seem to not want to see successful other blacks. Odd, but look at Savoy. Such a badass place, but trouble came. So sad.

Reality is my world and history is on my side. The examples are endless.
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Old 07-16-2021, 06:16 AM
 
611 posts, read 359,881 times
Reputation: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Independentthinking83 View Post
I rehash those points because people keep bringing up the municipal mergers. I agree we have too many, but you have a culture and history in place that isn’t going to change people’s minds about it.

I think it would happen if we had a growing economy and growing population.



So would Wilkinsburg school district have to be disbanded totally first, before a municipal merger takes place?

Your point is noted, but my point is about that.
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