Why is Pittsburgh losing population even though it's economy has been transformed? (Beaver Falls: crime rate, house)
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I I could understand if Humanoid was saying "I hate Pittsburgh and everyone in it because you're all fat and ugly"....Instead he's saying, "I hate Pittburgh, the business climate is unfriendly, there are population out-migration issues, etc etc, blah blah". He then debates the facts, root causes, yadda yadda. As this thread shows, if he's wrong, he admits his mistake....and I don't recall any personal attacks from him.
The problem is that there really isn't much difference between "you're all fat and ugly" and "the business climate is unfriendly" if you don't support your opinions with some evidence. The second statement is really just a more intellectual way to bash something one doesn't like. If in fact we aren't all fat and ugly or the business climate is just fine, the result of making either one of those statements is the same - the deliberate presentation of misinformation based on a biased viewpoint, which has consequences on a forum that is at least partially designed to provide accurate information to people who are thinking about making major life changes based on that information.
Humanoid has a tendency at times (but not at all times) to present his personal opinions about Pittsburgh as though they are facts, and he is literate enough to make this substitution of opinion for fact seem plausible to the average reader who isn't paying close attention. This is why BrianTH often posts responses to Humanoid that say things like "Your opinions about .... are duly noted" - he's pointing out the presence of some written sleight of hand.
It is all well and good that Humanoid admitted his mistake in this case when someone called him on it, but I strongly suspect that he fully knew that it was simply his opinion prior to posting what he did, and was hoping that nobody would actually look it up to find out if he was telling the truth.
As far as personal attacks go - I have seen a number of posts where Humanoid made snarky comments that implied that whoever his opponent was at the time was somehow mentally deficient or foolish or whatever, thus invalidating their argument. The most recent example I can think of is when Humanoid snarked at BrianTH for 1) simply being a homeowner at all, and 2) buying a house prior to selling his old one. The (veiled) implication was that Brian was thus too stupid to adequately comment about whatever it was they were arguing about today.
I would suggest that this sort of (fallacious) argumentation, while not technically being a personal attack, certainly falls into that spectrum. And it isn't any more or less of a "personal attack" than speaking about someone as though they aren't in the room. Or any of the other things we have all said about or to one another on this forum in the last few years in the heat of battle. Humanoid is hardly the only person here to have done this sort of thing, of course, but he has in fact done it, and recently. In any case, effective internet argumentation requires a certain amount of thickness of skin, and I doubt that he cares any more about what was said about him in this thread than we do about his implications in other threads that we are stupid or misguided.
Last edited by subdivisions; 05-28-2008 at 12:35 PM..
The problem is that there really isn't much difference between "you're all fat and ugly" and "the business climate is unfriendly" if you don't support your opinions with some evidence. The second statement is really just a more intellectual way to bash something one doesn't like. If in fact we aren't all fat and ugly or the business climate is just fine, the result of making either one of those statements is the same - the deliberate presentation of misinformation based on a biased viewpoint, which has consequences on a forum that is at least partially designed to provide accurate information to people who are thinking about making major life changes based on that information.
But that's completely wrong. "fat and ugly" is a personal attack and personally insulting. "Hating Pittsburgh" is an opinion, and opinions can be proven, disproven, or at a minimum, shown to be plausable or inplausable through factual evidence.
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Originally Posted by subdivisions
Humanoid has a tendency at times (but not at all times) to present his personal opinions about Pittsburgh as though they are facts...It is all well and good that Humanoid admitted his mistake in this case when someone called him on it, but I strongly suspect that he fully knew that it was simply his opinion prior to posting what he did, and was hoping that nobody would actually look it up to find out if he was telling the truth.
Then call foul....I can find a few examples where I've told Humanoid he was full of it. If you see nonsense, say: That's nonsense, because of X, here's a link to Y that disproves your post, and the underlying theory behind all of this is Z.
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Originally Posted by subdivisions
As far as personal attacks go - I have seen a number of posts where Humanoid made snarky comments that implied that whoever his opponent was at the time was somehow mentally deficient or foolish or whatever, thus invalidating their argument. The most recent example I can think of is when Humanoid snarked at BrianTH for 1) simply being a homeowner at all, and 2) buying a house prior to selling his old one. The (veiled) implication was that Brian was thus too stupid to adequately comment about whatever it was they were arguing about today.
That's my whole point...this all boils down to feelings since snarky is purely your personal perception. Using the above snippet as an example......I don't find the comment snarky, I find the comment correct or at least a reasonable position considering the current ecomomy....(I should also add that I also respect BrianTH and his intellect as a poster)
First, for what it is worth Humanoid's commentary on our buying a new home before selling our old home didn't hurt my feelings.
Second, my advice above was not directed to Humanoid, and not intended as any sort of personal attack. Moreover, if other people want to engage Humanoid in extended back-and-forth discussions, that of course is entirely their right. Personally, though, I agree with the advice I was given on this matter, and that is why I am passing it along.
But that's completely wrong. "fat and ugly" is a personal attack and personally insulting. "Hating Pittsburgh" is an opinion, and opinions can be proven, disproven, or at a minimum, shown to be plausable or inplausable through factual evidence.
Then call foul....I can find a few examples where I've told Humanoid he was full of it. If you see nonsense, say: That's nonsense, because of X, here's a link to Y that disproves your post, and the underlying theory behind all of this is Z.
That's my whole point...this all boils down to feelings since snarky is purely your personal perception. Using the above snippet as an example......I don't find the comment snarky, I find the comment correct or at least a reasonable position considering the current ecomomy....(I should also add that I also respect BrianTH and his intellect as a poster)
Re: fat & ugly - this could potentially be a true or false statement just like statements about the economy. It may in fact be the case that everyone in Pittsburgh is literally fat and ugly. Just as it may be the case that the economy sucks here. Or not. Either of those statements could be insulting to someone given the right circumstances or a sensitive opponent, regardless of their veracity. In any case, the important part (to me at least) is whether or not someone provides evidence to support their assertions about fat/ugly/bad economy, not whether they meant to be insulting or not. Evidence, not the topic being discussed, is the difference between opinion and fact. In the case of the statement "I hate Pittsburgh" the only evidence you need to support that assertion is knowledge of one's own likes and dislikes. Which is why very few (perhaps none) of Humanoid's opponents have directly taken umbrage with his statements about his personal feelings about Pittsburgh (how can they? he knows how he feels and they don't), but many have taken umbrage with his statements about the state of the economy here, whether more people leave PA than CA, and so forth.
Re: telling Humanoid he's full of it - LOL! I just did! It happens all the time here. But sometimes people probably just don't care enough to look up facts to disprove what he said, or they may not read carefully enough to notice when he is presenting opinion as fact. However, other posters' laziness or disinterest in a particular conversation in no way affects the actual veracity of anything Humanoid claims. Anything he says might be either nonsense or totally correct regardless of whether other people "call foul" or not, and nobody will ever know which it is until they bother to look up the facts about it. My statement about his typical modus operandi was simply a word to the wise, and a personal opinion about the way I view an aspect of social dynamics on this board. And believe it or not, it was also a compliment about his fluency with the written word.
Re: snarkiness - you are correct that this is a personal perception. It is not my perception that anyone has personally attacked Humanoid in this thread. It seems to be other people's perceptions that he has been personally attacked in this thread. And it probably doesn't matter too much who's right. And I doubt he cares much.
Re: fat & ugly - this could potentially be a true or false statement just like statements about the economy. It may in fact be the case that everyone in Pittsburgh is literally fat and ugly. Just as it may be the case that the economy sucks here. Or not. Either of those statements could be insulting to someone given the right circumstances or a sensitive opponent, regardless of their veracity. In any case, the important part (to me at least) is whether or not someone provides evidence to support their assertions about fat/ugly/bad economy, not whether they meant to be insulting or not. Evidence, not the topic being discussed, is the difference between opinion and fact. In the case of the statement "I hate Pittsburgh" the only evidence you need to support that assertion is knowledge of one's own likes and dislikes. Which is why very few (perhaps none) of Humanoid's opponents have directly taken umbrage with his statements about his personal feelings about Pittsburgh (how can they? he knows how he feels and they don't), but many have taken umbrage with his statements about the state of the economy here, whether more people leave PA than CA, and so forth.
Re: telling Humanoid he's full of it - LOL! I just did! It happens all the time here. But sometimes people probably just don't care enough to look up facts to disprove what he said, or they may not read carefully enough to notice when he is presenting opinion as fact. However, other posters' laziness or disinterest in a particular conversation in no way affects the actual veracity of anything Humanoid claims. Anything he says might be either nonsense or totally correct regardless of whether other people "call foul" or not, and nobody will ever know which it is until they bother to look up the facts about it. My statement about his typical modus operandi was simply a word to the wise, and a personal opinion about the way I view an aspect of social dynamics on this board. And believe it or not, it was also a compliment about his fluency with the written word.
Re: snarkiness - you are correct that this is a personal perception. It is not my perception that anyone has personally attacked Humanoid in this thread. It seems to be other people's perceptions that he has been personally attacked in this thread. And it probably doesn't matter too much who's right. And I doubt he cares much.
That seems reasonable...the only thing I would add (and this is slightly tangential) is that this whole Humaniod fixation seems like small potatos...Remember the state of affairs a few months ago. Zero intellegent discussion and zero maturity resulting in a competely useless board. The entire forum was monopolized by a few barely-sane posters who used the board as self-therapy. As far as I'm concerned those types of posters are the ones to be concerned about....they ran off many of this forums best posters (you included).
That seems reasonable...the only thing I would add (and this is slightly tangential) is that this whole Humaniod fixation seems like small potatos...Remember the state of affairs a few months ago. Zero intellegent discussion and zero maturity resulting in a competely useless board. The entire forum was monopolized by a few barely-sane posters who used the board as self-therapy. As far as I'm concerned those types of posters are the ones to be concerned about....they ran off many of this forums best posters (you included).
Yeah, I kind of have to agree. At least Humanoid generally makes a serious effort to conduct argumentation in a logical and reasonable fashion.
I can think of at least 5 other posters (most of whom are gone now) who were a thousand times more irritating, freaky, and/or disruptive than Humanoid.
I'd third that sentiment (Humanoid is not a particularly disruptive poster, at least by general Internet standards). The only caveat I would note (and again as was pointed out to me) is that an extended back-and-forth argument between just two posters tends to be a conversation killer. But obviously that caveat doesn't just apply to Humanoid, and even in cases where Humanoid is involved, it takes two to tango.
Yes, it does, which is why I think it's so funny that some people accuse me of being argumentative, all the while arguing with me. Not you, Brian, BTW.
The (veiled) implication was that Brian was thus too stupid to adequately comment about whatever it was they were arguing about today.
This wasn't any implication I was making tacit or otherwise. If anything my "veiled" implication was that perhaps Brian is not able to objectively look out housing because he is vested (doubly) in a particular outcome. People have a tendency to argue for what is best fo them. My other comments were really just stupid chit-chat as what he said at first sounded really dumb financially (the 4 houses deal), but buying before selling also seemed a bit dumb too. But, again just stupid chit-chat on my part.
But to Brian's credit talking about today's housing market with people that have recently purchased usually doesn't end pretty.
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Humanoid has a tendency at times (but not at all times) to present his personal opinions about Pittsburgh as though they are facts
This is nonsense, not because its not true but because everyone does it. Even the above sentence is not stated as an opinion. In fact its pretty rare to find people say "I think that", "Its my opinion that..." unless they want to call this out for some particular reason. Ironically I can remember a writing teacher complain to me about using "I think" "In my view", too much, her comment "Its your paper of course that is what your view is". The same thing applies here, the reader is usually able to distinguish between a statement of fact and opinion. About the economy, I have given arguments in multiple threads. You may of not liked my reasoning, but don't claim that I have never justified myself. Also, Pittsburgh economy isn't a simple topic, if we are going to restrict the conversation to facts then any conversation will be rather dull "Pittsburgh median income is....".
Lastly, your concern for others is oh so peachy, but it would help if it was not also so wildly hypocritical. There is really two standards here, one for people that post positive things and another for people that post negative things. I have never seen you ask someone for justification when they are making positive claims about the city, despite the fact that some are horribly misleading. Perhaps you always agree with the positive claims, I don't know. But if you are going to critique me for making a negative comment about the city without full justification, I would hope you would critique those that make positive comments about the city without full justification. Some of this is understandable, people have a negativity bias. But as far as concern for future residents go, inaccurate positive and negative comments are equally damaging.
In fact I would post in the Pittsburgh forum much less if it wasn't for all the inaccurate "positive" claims about the city.
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