Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Pittsburgh
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-02-2023, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,012,289 times
Reputation: 12401

Advertisements

So, I've had thoughts along these lines for awhile, but I wanted to collect them in one place as an argument. Namely, as the title suggests, Larimer is pretty clearly the next domino to fall in the East End, with the near-total transition of East Liberty, and the slow-moving gentrification of Garfield finally having picked up speed considerably over the last 10 years.

Demographically the shift in Larimer actually began last decade. Larimer as a whole continued to shrink of course, the total population falling from 1,728 to 1,545. However, the white population rose slightly, from 155 to 210 over the same period. Overall while the neighborhood stayed heavily black, it increased from 9% to 14% white. This was an interesting development because over the 2010s there was essentially zero market-rate development in Larimer - just several phases of affordable housing; first these townhouses and later this apartment building. So either the affordable housing actually attracted more white residents, or more white people began moving into/fixing up the comparably few historic homes left in Larimer.

Affordable housing infill continues in the neighborhood, with the phase around Old Larimer School underway. However, there are lots of signs that development, both commercial and residential, is starting to lap past this. This includes:

Greater Bakery Square:

Although not commonly thought of as such, Larimer begins at Penn Avenue, which means Bakery Square's northern half (the core retail/office area, not the apartments) has thus always been in the neighborhood. Walnut Capital has been continually expanding its property ownership in this area. In 2019 they bought the Matthews International building just to the east. In 2020 they made an even larger acquisition, buying the Village of Eastside shopping center in its entirety, along with the former site of Club One fitness - though this area is west of East Liberty Boulevard, and thus technically within East Liberty. Walnut Capital has a long-term desire to buy the entire block down to Fifth Avenue, though CMU and Chatham owning buildings on the block will make it difficult. Finally, they have been openly lobbying for both a Bakery Square busway stop and a related pedestrian bridge across the Busway/rail tracks for some time, which would open the next section to development.

Hamilton/Frankstown Corridor:

This area is - for now - almost totally devoid of residents, with lots of industrial buildings and only a handful of residents. At the moment, it's mostly a mix of old industrial-type businesses and some typical low-income businesses. But that's not all that's within the corridor. In 2011 East End Brewing moved to Larimer. A pre-pandemic restaurant within the brewery failed to survive coronavirus, but in 2021 they opened a pizza place within the brewery, meaning it now serves as a full-service bar/restaurant. The area also has KLVN Coffee, which opened in 2020, and Goodlander Cocktails, which opened in 2022. In addition there are a number of other service businesses in the corridor, like Romp n' Roll, Dogtopia, The Golden Bone, SKN Muay Thai, Leg1on Training & Performance, and Alumni Theater. Not to mention offices for local nonprofits (Hello Neighbor, Grow Pittsburgh) and robotics firms (Shift Robotics, KEF Robotics). I just discovered this building on Frankstown the other day, and while it doesn't have much of anything special (a personal trainer, a notary, a black barbershop, and a clothing boutique) it was just a vacant garage a year prior.

The big development is of course yet to come in this corridor. TWG development is building a five story, 220-unit apartment which will front on Frankstown, with a garage accessible off of Hamilton. 90% of the units will be market rate, and it will also contain a small amount of commercial space on Frankstown. Given the area is basically bereft of residents right now, this will basically cement the corridor as being an extension of East Liberty, rather than a core portion of Larimer.

Core of Larimer:

The central part of Larimer is largely residential, and outside of a few blocks which have been rebuilt close to Larimer Avenue, is one of the most highly blighted portions of the East End. Particularly in the far eastern portions of the neighborhood, there are now blocks with no houses left standing. Even here, change is coming.

There have been plans for major new developments within the core of the neighborhood. Steel City Squash is developing several blocks along Larimer Avenue for a venue. I recently discovered in a URA agenda that The Urban Academy charter school is looking at a huge expansion, which will ultimately redevelop several blocks of the neighborhood.

But what about market-rate residential. Well, there was the ELDI plan to build 14 mostly market-rate houses along East Liberty Boulevard. It's unclear if it will go through or not now - the community group is opposed - but it's up to the URA, not the Larimer Consensus Group, to make the final determination.

But is there anything else going on? Certainly, existing houses have been selling at unheard of prices recently, like $155,000, $220,000, and 225,000. I also saw this attempt to get three single-family homes built in Larimer in 2021. Looking around online, it's pretty clear that the firm involved does not do affordable housing, leading me to conclude they are market-rate units. I've not seen evidence of construction yet, but I think given this and the attempted EDLI project it's now viable to do market-rate infill in Larimer, meaning it's just a matter of time before we start seeing it. Considering how much of Larimer is mostly empty, there are plenty of opportunities out there for developers.

Anyway, this is my two cents on the future of Larimer. To be clear, I do not see this being a quick process, like what happened in East Liberty - I think it will be a slower one. That said, I do think that by 2030 the Frankstown/Hamilton corridor will be pretty well established as an extension of East Liberty, and Larimer proper will be considered more like an eastern version of Garfield rather than an extension of Greater Homewood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-02-2023, 10:51 AM
 
4,177 posts, read 2,954,652 times
Reputation: 3092
In 1987 I was new to the city proper. As a seventh grader I decided to purposely miss my bus so that I could go to a classmates home. He happened to live in Larimer. This was my first experience with inner city blight. This was the worse neighborhood I ever seen. Before mass demolition it was street after street of dilapidated framed homes either abandoned or is severe disrepair. It reminded me of skid row in the musical Little Shop of Horrors. The neighborhood is a clean slate now.

For quite a few years I drove my children to Pittsburgh Obama via Larimer. I noticed a lot of major rehabs over the years. The URA provided facade improvement funding for the entire neighborhood. As early as 2016 I noticed a few white families at the school bus stops in Larimer and Homewood. Never would I have EVER considered Larimer as an alternative until now. I would have the ability to walk anywhere and have enough planting space for my future garden.

Homewood flips are 200K now.

KLVN (Larimer), Biddle (Wilkinsburg), and Everyday Cafe (Homewood) are my favorite morning destinations. KLVN should offer more food options but the coffee is pretty good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,012,289 times
Reputation: 12401
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpipkins2 View Post
In 1987 I was new to the city proper. As a seventh grader I decided to purposely miss my bus so that I could go to a classmates home. He happened to live in Larimer. This was my first experience with inner city blight. This was the worse neighborhood I ever seen. Before mass demolition it was street after street of dilapidated framed homes either abandoned or is severe disrepair. It reminded me of skid row in the musical Little Shop of Horrors. The neighborhood is a clean slate now.

For quite a few years I drove my children to Pittsburgh Obama via Larimer. I noticed a lot of major rehabs over the years. The URA provided facade improvement funding for the entire neighborhood. As early as 2016 I noticed a few white families at the school bus stops in Larimer and Homewood. Never would I have EVER considered Larimer as an alternative until now. I would have the ability to walk anywhere and have enough planting space for my future garden.

Homewood flips are 200K now.

KLVN (Larimer), Biddle (Wilkinsburg), and Everyday Cafe (Homewood) are my favorite morning destinations. KLVN should offer more food options but the coffee is pretty good.
Yeah, to be clear, there's some green shoots in Homewood South as well. Someone is fixing up this old service station right now and turning it into a a mini-shopping center. And the area right around the Homewood busway stop has gotten a lot of new investment, and you see a ton of white faces on the street now (the other day I saw some weird goth teenager walking with a cat on her shoulders).

I'm just sad that Homewood North continues its decline. There's so many fantastic old homes still on streets like Race, Monticello, and Hermitage, but we'll probably lose a ton more before rehabs up there become cost effective.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 11:34 AM
 
4,177 posts, read 2,954,652 times
Reputation: 3092
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, to be clear, there's some green shoots in Homewood South as well. Someone is fixing up this old service station right now and turning it into a a mini-shopping center. And the area right around the Homewood busway stop has gotten a lot of new investment, and you see a ton of white faces on the street now (the other day I saw some weird goth teenager walking with a cat on her shoulders).

I'm just sad that Homewood North continues its decline. There's so many fantastic old homes still on streets like Race, Monticello, and Hermitage, but we'll probably lose a ton more before rehabs up there become cost effective.
The flippers are working on Homewood north as we speak. Homewod North has the larger homes with the most character. My friends sister has been in her home for about 3 years. During her housewarming party several neighbors dropped by and one was a white couple. I know a few families that have moved back to Pittsburgh to live in these homes.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7...1339890_zpid/?

This is a spacious 5 bedroom home. It was totally updated (including new sunken basement) with a full bath addition located on the first floor off the kitchen .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,012,289 times
Reputation: 12401
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpipkins2 View Post
The flippers are working on Homewood north as we speak. Homewod North has the larger homes with the most character. My friends sister has been in her home for about 3 years. During her housewarming party several neighbors dropped by and one was a white couple. I know a few families that have moved back to Pittsburgh to live in these homes.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7...1339890_zpid/?

This is a spacious 5 bedroom home. It was totally updated (including new sunken basement) with a full bath addition located on the first floor off the kitchen .
Yeah, that home is a great example of the Homewood North vernacular. A "poor man's Friendship" more or less.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 03:54 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,312,233 times
Reputation: 3338
Hasn't this gentrification fad likely run its course in Pittsburgh? Do that many people really want to move here? Last time I was in Garfield it looked to me like gentrification had tapered off there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 03:57 PM
 
4,177 posts, read 2,954,652 times
Reputation: 3092
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
Hasn't this gentrification fad likely run its course in Pittsburgh? Do that many people really want to move here? Last time I was in Garfield it looked to me like gentrification had tapered off there.
That’s weird because I see no signs of tapering off in Garfield. Garfield continues to improve and the home prices keep rising. Penn Ave looks very good post street reconstruction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 06:45 PM
 
3,595 posts, read 3,389,024 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
Hasn't this gentrification fad likely run its course in Pittsburgh? Do that many people really want to move here? Last time I was in Garfield it looked to me like gentrification had tapered off there.
Areas of the north side are also hot. Areas that have gentrafied previously are pricing out investors. They will find new markets to grow and turn a profit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2023, 07:20 PM
 
6,357 posts, read 5,050,411 times
Reputation: 3309
thanks for the insight, esc and wpips. i always thought larimer, with its somewhat vast areas of green, is a an old-new again frontier of sorts for city experimentation and expansion of residency and economic activity.

i hope the URA gets its way and DOES get market rate homes there. why not let middle class people, who HAVE worked and saved, establish roots in this re-blossoming community? then it will be truly an effot at 'diversity' to have professionals or if not, at least middle class families there.


and, that WAS some kind of de facto 'little italy' at one time. the old sausage business, now closed as of last December, started i think in the 1940s! my neighbors in Uptown years ago, italians, actually lived IN Larimer prior (the grandparents).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2023, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,012,289 times
Reputation: 12401
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
I was in Garfield it looked to me like gentrification had tapered off there.
Garfield gentrification absolutely kicked into high gear in the 2010s. The census recorded a decline in the black population of around 700 (-24%) and a rise in the white population of over 500 (more than doubling) since 2010, shifting the neighborhood from 80% black, 14% white (around where Larimer is now) to 65% black, 29% white. If those rates continue through to 2030, the neighborhood will be essentially an even split, though I expect it will accelerate rather than slowing down.

You can also see this just walking around Garfield. I've gotten bored with walking from East Liberty station to my home in Morningside, because after nine years, I've walked just about every street in East Liberty. So I've started taking Negley Station and walking through Garfield via N Fairmount. The vast majority of people I see walking are white. Not just on the first few blocks, where there's a lot of Friendship-style houses which have been fixed up - I mean the whole way up to Black Street, I mostly see white people walking their dogs, coming out of their homes, etc.

You can also look at recent sale prices, including $335,000, $340,000, $406,000, and $558,000. The days of cheap houses in Garfield are over in fact. The least expensive homes sell for around $200,000, unless you're talking about a gut rehab of an uninhabitable home. There are also lots of planned infill projects, including ten on Rosetta Street, Four on N Aiken, a different four on N Aiken, and five on Wicklow Street. The last three are all market-rate proposals.

Garfield will always be an integrated neighborhood, but I think it's going to flip to a white majority pretty rapidly now that it's hit this inflection point. The reason I say this is because unlike East Liberty, there's an overall smaller percentage of income-protected units, save for the big mixed-income development at the top of the hill. Most of the neighborhood is either legacy housing, or vacant lots (with the vacant lots now being snapped up by developers. The gentrification is just less noticeable because it's happening house by house - there's not really a logical place to see a new 100+ unit apartment building spring up, except maybe a handful of places right along Penn Avenue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy2073 View Post
Areas of the north side are also hot. Areas that have gentrafied previously are pricing out investors. They will find new markets to grow and turn a profit.
Feels like Manchester finally hit the inflection point in the last decade, and you're even starting to see flips in California-Kirkbride!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Pittsburgh

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top