Pittsburgh has an inferiority complex (middle-class, school, subdivisions)

[Drover]

Originally Posted by highway29south

Yes, but again, that is tjv189's opinion. And I can bet you that Pittsburghers would not only reject him, but fight tooth and nail against him for that opinion. Maybe he just thinks Pittsburgh sucks. So what? The defensiveness in this town is amazing. And that is why Pittsburgh remains so closed off to outsiders. No other opinions are welcome.

Right. So help me understand why Pittsburgh should roll out the welcome mat for someone whose opinion is openly hostile toward the place? Wow, what a strange idea that Pittsburgh is hostile to outsiders because it fails to embrace those who think it sucks. Smacks of self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

ANTAGONISTIC OUTSIDER: "Your city sucks."

PITTSBURGH NATIVE: "Get bent."

ANTAGONISTIC OUTSIDER: "SEE?? See the hostility here??!?! Pittsburghers are SO DEFENSIVE!! I feel so unwelcome here! They don't welcome other opinions! They must have an inferiority complex or something."

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

By the way, here is a list of 311 metropolitan areas listed by violent crime rates (data compiled from 2006 Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation):

2006 Metro Area Violent Crime Rates

Pittsburgh is #189, between Rochester, NY and Raleigh, NC.

For comparison purposes, here are the rankings of other metro areas between 15 and 30 by size (Pittsburgh is #22):

Seattle #160
Minneapolis N/A
San Diego #130
St Louis #69
Tampa #37
Baltimore #23
Denver #152
Portland #212
Cincinnati #186
Sacramento #52
Cleveland #128
Orlando tied #13
San Antonio #111
Kansas City #62
Las Vegas #15

Holding aside Minneapolis (for which data was not available in this list), Pittsburgh was second only to Portland in this list for the lowest violent crime rate, although Cincinnati was a very close third.

Anyway, this is why I tend to claim Pittsburgh has a relatively low violent crime rate for a city of its size.

Yeah, about that: Pittsburgh crime
Crime

Despite the high poverty rate, Pittsburgh once had one of the lowest property crime rates and a lower-than-average violent crime rate among cities of similar size.[42] However, recent crime statistics show violent crime has risen, although most of the rising crime statistics reflect crimes committed by known assailants.[43]
As of 2003, statistics indicate that the Pittsburgh murder rate is 2.61 times the national average, which is considered high for a city of its size. Overall, the "violent crime" rate for the city is about twice the national average, while the "property" or non-violent crime rate is about 1.11 times the national average.[44]
(See 2009 Pittsburgh police shooting.)

Pittsburgh crime rating:



Murder - Is 2.61 times the National Average
Forcible Rape - Is 1.12 times the National Average
Robbery - Is 2.23 times the National Average
Aggravated Assault - Is 1.42 times the National Average
All Violent Crime - Is 1.78 times the National Average

Being higher than the NATIONAL average does not say to me that "Pittsburgh has a relatively low violent crime rate for a city of its size."
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[highway29south]

Originally Posted by Hotlanta2

But you have never lived there. There in that lies the problem.

Living there is quite different from visiting. I always say Pittsburgh would be a great place to visit. Living here, however, is quite a different story.

Given that, I do think Brian has a point. We all should try to come to an agreement where we can discuss this with openmindedness and give respect to each others opinions.

For example, we can agree that living in another city besides Pittsburgh gives you an unique perspective compared to natives here and therefore, comparing Pittsburgh to other cities you've lived in is valid. And people do assume that most Pittsburgh posters here are natives. In most cases they are right. Pittsburghers, on the other hand, may want to see that living in one city all their lives, while great, may limit their experiences and ability to see other's points of view. And that is ok. But they are in the best position to point out the issues within the city and maybe suggest what to do about them.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by highway29south

I agree very much. If people from Pittsburgh were more open minded and willing to express their disagreement with the facts in a more diplomatic manner, we may be able to progress instead of standing still. That of course doesn't mean you have to agree with criticism, just approach it differently. Pittsburgh is not going to suddenly become a different place because a few people don't like it.

But of course all this cuts both ways. People who are being critical of Pittsburgh should also be open-minded to disagreement with their views, and they should also strive to express their views diplomatically, and of course people liking Pittsburgh doesn't mean they are opposed to positive change.

Again, there is plenty of blame to go around.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hotlanta2

But you have never lived there. There in that lies the problem.

I will just ask you again to reflect on whether comments like these are actually adding to the conversation in a substantive way, or if they are in fact contributing to these conversations being more hostile than necessary.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by Drover

Right. So help me understand why Pittsburgh should roll out the welcome mat for someone whose opinion is openly hostile toward the place? Wow, what a strange idea that Pittsburgh is hostile to outsiders because it fails to embrace those who think it sucks. Smacks of self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

ANTAGONISTIC OUTSIDER: "Your city sucks."

PITTSBURGH NATIVE: "Get bent."

ANTAGONISTIC OUTSIDER: "SEE?? See the hostility here??!?! Pittsburghers are SO DEFENSIVE!! I feel so unwelcome here! They don't welcome other opinions! They must have an inferiority complex or something."

I see what you are saying. But I don't agree. The first response of any Pittsburgher to criticism seems to be "get bent". What is the big deal about someone who doesn't like Pittsburgh? The city is not your child for goodness sake. It's a city. So someone hates it and says so. Why can't the response be "good for you" and move on? Whether than person stays in Pittsburgh or leaves, so what? Who needs to roll out a red carpet? They stay or leave. That shouldn't impact your life that much.

As I said, people from my home town complained when I lived there. People on this board complain about my home town. I don't go after them and tell them to "get bent". I say I don't agree, but I respect that they hate it there. Why would I act hostile towards them? What purpose does that serve? I don't care if they stay there or leave. Makes no nevermind to me. My city still stays the same.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But of course all this cuts both ways. People who are being critical of Pittsburgh should also be open-minded to disagreement with their views, and they should also strive to express their views diplomatically, and of course people liking Pittsburgh doesn't mean they are opposed to positive change.

Again, there is plenty of blame to go around.

Agreed. It works both ways.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hotlanta2

Being higher than the NATIONAL average does not say to me that "Pittsburgh has a relatively low violent crime rate for a city of its size."

Well, first of all you were looking at city-only statistics, and I was looking at metro area statistics. City-only statistics are often not very useful for comparative purposes, because municipal boundaries are arbitrary, and the City of Pittsburgh happens to be one of the smaller central cities within metro areas of similar size.

Second, violent crime rates tend to be higher in large urban areas. So, the lower national average reflects the fact that lots of people live in rural areas or much smaller urban areas than Pittsburgh. That is why I compare Pittsburgh to cities of similar size--it provides more of an apple-to-apple basis for comparison.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by highway29south

And people do assume that most Pittsburgh posters here are natives. In most cases they are right.

I agreed with much of what you wrote, but I want to note again that there happen to be many regular posters here who are not Pittsburgh natives. I haven't attempted any sort of census (and it would probably be meaningless in short order as people come and go), so I can't pass judgment on where "most" of the posters grew up. But I guess I would just advise against generalizations like this under the circumstances.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by highway29south

I see what you are saying. But I don't agree. The first response of any Pittsburgher to criticism seems to be "get bent". What is the big deal about someone who doesn't like Pittsburgh? The city is not your child for goodness sake. It's a city. So someone hates it and says so. Why can't the response be "good for you" and move on? Whether than person stays in Pittsburgh or leaves, so what? Who needs to roll out a red carpet? They stay or leave. That shouldn't impact your life that much.

So why can't the same be said of the other side? "So Pittsburghers like to defend their city from antagonistic attacks from outsiders. I guess I'll make a note of that feature of the city and move on."

Originally Posted by highway29south

As I said, people from my home town complained when I lived there. People on this board complain about my home town. I don't go after them and tell them to "get bent". I say I don't agree, but I respect that they hate it there. Why would I act hostile towards them? What purpose does that serve? I don't care if they stay there or leave. Makes no nevermind to me. My city still stays the same.

So why does it make so much "nevermind" to you if Pittsburghers are keen to defend their city and want nothing to do with outsiders who hate it? Why not just make note of it and move on?

As for why anyone should care, the reason is because there is such a negative pall over Pittsburgh in large part because the "this city sucks" crowd has so much sway over it that it creates a drag on the whole place. There are enough natives who don't like the place that they sure don't need outsiders fueling the fire. It would be nice if the "this place sucks" crowd would get up and leave already so that those who actually want to do something about it can finally make some progress.